Double Bass Intonation and tone

[smeet]

I'm not sure if this is the right place for this, but I found this an interesting blog post, some of the comments are good too. As one of the commentors notes, many/most bowed instrument players know much of this, but IMHO it's valuable to quantify it. These issues are more important to higher-pitched instruments like violins, but I think it's still worth thinking about.

Intonation, a Physical Phenomenon

 

[Jake deVilliers]

That's a good start on stringed instrument acoustics. Why do you say that its more important for violins/violin players?

 

[smeet]

I played violin for about 15 years, so I'm a bit biased... But our ears (even bass players') are much more sensitive to intonation at higher frequencies. It might be annoying to listen to an out-of-tune bassist or bass section. But it is literally painful for most people (even non-musicians) to listen to an out-of-tune violinist. You can clearly hear the difference if a violinist plays in equal temperament vs perfect harmonics based off the root. It's much harder to hear that in a bass.

EDIT:
As a simple example - when working up a piece, I would always check my intonation against open strings. When playing a note a whole step above one of the middle strings (D or A) I could check it against the lower string (forming a major 6th) or the upper string (forming a perfect 4th). The resulting pitches are noticeably different, and depending on what key you are in, one will sound good and pure, and the other won't. I don't think most bassists need this level of intonation control (or am I wrong)?

This is from one of the comments in the blog:

Some violin players, in an orchestra, tune the A slightly high and then the other strings in perfect fifths. That will compensate a bit so the lower strings won't feel that low in tuning, but the E-string will be quite high. I don't know how common that is, but I did once meet a bassoon player that was a bit annoyed about the violin players' slightly high A.

"Slightly high" here is probably just a few cents, but it annoyed the bassoonist. I personally probably couldn't hear that small an intonation difference in the range of an open bass string.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

meh. Good intonation and tone is important. It's like using good ingredients for cooking - but it doesn't make up for the cooks skill and ability to enhance the food in whatever condition it's in.

Understanding these types of things can be helpful, but the thing that matters most is psychoacoustics and understand how people hear things and listen. You can play perfectly intonated notes til you're blue in the face, but if you don't connect with the audience it's still an empty experience. In the grand scheme of things, it's nice if your instrument fully resonates but it's a secondary thing people are listening for.

If the article was absolutely right in all senses, everyone would be an audiophile and would reject bad audio quality. MP3s, XM Radio, compressed music, even digital music would be avoided. We all know that's not the case.

 

[smeet]

hdiddy - yes it's not the only thing that matters, but so what? Is it not of interest to read and learn things like this? Is there a need to "meh"? I'm not sure why you would assume I'm saying that artistry and other skills are not important as a result.

I personally hear a real difference when people have really good intonation (as I mentioned, more on high-pitched melodic instruments than on bass). For instance, equally tempered 3rds in a string quartet sound sour to me. Does that not matter to you? To other listeners?

I didn't put up the link to prove a point. I thought it was interesting. If you don't, that's fine.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

meh.

LTFU

 

[Reiska]

It is very weird how tuning the bass in 5ths changes the whole instrument, especially the intonation. I don`t mean better / worse comparison, but definently all different.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

It's an interesting article. The specific instance of what the author calls "resonance" might not apply too much to pizz players, because we tend to mute the strings that we are not playing. But there is still more to the story that I was talking about with my theory class the other day, something that for lack of a better term I have taken to calling "selective hearing".

When we hear a sound, we can focus on different parts of the sound with our auditory senses in much the same way that we can change the focus length of our eyes to see objects both far away and close to us. With our eyes we tend to do this tracking naturally. With the auditory senses, some people seem to do this naturally, while others do not. While I don't understand the science behind it, many students can benefit pretty quickly by learning to focus their ears on the portion of the sound wave that relates to the disturbance or "beating" between simultaneous sounding notes. For many, it's like one of those "Magic Eye" Invalid Link Removed pictures that used to be printed in magazines a while back. Once you learn to focus your hearing to the correct "distance", intonation can become much more clear and the "sweet spot" between simultaneous sounds can be found much more exactly and quickly. I always find this stuff interesting.

 

[Don Kasper]

LTFU

Regarding "L***" - "Lighten" or "Loosen"?
Clarification needed.
T***ks!

 

[smeet]

It's an interesting article. The specific instance of what the author calls "resonance" might not apply too much to pizz players, because we tend to mute the strings that we are not playing. But there is still more to the story that I was talking about with my theory class the other day, something that for lack of a better term I have taken to calling "selective hearing".

When we hear a sound, we can focus on different parts of the sound with our auditory senses in much the same way that we can change the focus length of our eyes to see objects both far away and close to us. With our eyes we tend to do this tracking naturally. With the auditory senses, some people seem to do this naturally, while others do not. While I don't understand the science behind it, many students can benefit pretty quickly by learning to focus their ears on the portion of the sound wave that relates to the disturbance or "beating" between simultaneous sounding notes. For many, it's like one of those "Magic Eye" Invalid Link Removed pictures that used to be printed in magazines a while back. Once you learn to focus your hearing to the correct "distance", intonation can become much more clear and the "sweet spot" between simultaneous sounds can be found much more exactly and quickly. I always find this stuff interesting.

I know what you're talking about, of course. It's what we do when we listen to the bass line and ignore the vocals in a song. Can you say any more about this? I'd like to hear whatever thoughts you (or your students) have.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

Regarding "L***" - "Lighten" or "Loosen"?
Clarification needed.
T***ks!

Can't we just leave it ambiguous?
Maybe I meant Lacking Tact Foments Uncool.
Or
Let Tales Flow Unchaperoned.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Wow, I was way off.... I read it as "Lactose Tolerance Fluctuates Underwater". I must be getting old or something.

Smeet - I didn't put it too well at first, but I'm referring to being able to focus on certain parts of the overtone series as played by any instrument. I'm not scientific enough to know which overtones specifically (and honestly that doesn't interest me too much), but there is a certain part of the "range" of any note where the "intonation overtones" are much more apparent than in other parts of the range... sorry, but that's the best way I know how to put it. Somehow developing the ability to hear this part of the sound facilitates more precise and accurate intonation adjustments quickly. Hopefully some more scientifically minded folks will chime in on this.

 

[smeet]

Thanks Chris, that actually makes a lot of sense in a subjective way. I wonder if thinking/hearing that way could help with transcription too.

 

[Don Kasper]

Can't we just leave it ambiguous?
Maybe I meant Lacking Tact Foments Uncool.
Or
Let Tales Flow Unchaperoned.

TLDR...

 

[Huy Nguyen]

There's research out there that specifically says the the human ear can only track one thing at a time. Heading multiple signals simultaneously is externally difficult for the brain to analyse in details. Add to that fact that the ear physically changes with age and cannot detect certain pitches. Apparently the Haus in your ear that vibrate due to incoming sound shorten over time. It's the reason why some people get harder of hearing as they age.

My point is that this is a slippery slope. It's like taking a microscope to a tiny little detail and finding something interesting. It's safe to say tho that bad intonation is a distraction. Otherwise it's icing on the cake.

Can you use it as a tool? maybe. For overtones, I would think you generally play so quickly that by the time you detect that you're out of tune , it's already too late.

 

[Don Kasper]

There's research out there that specifically says the the human ear can only track one thing at a time. Heading multiple signals simultaneously is externally difficult for the brain to analyse in details. Add to that fact that the ear physically changes with age and cannot detect certain pitches. Apparently the Haus in your ear that vibrate due to incoming sound shorten over time. It's the reason why some people get harder of hearing as they age.

My point is that this is a slippery slope. It's like taking a microscope to a tiny little detail and finding something interesting. It's safe to say tho that bad intonation is a distraction. Otherwise it's icing on the cake.

Can you use it as a tool? maybe. For overtones, I would think you generally play so quickly that by the time you detect that you're out of tune , it's already too late.

I disagree - I believe that good intonation is, in fact, an essential ingredient; poor intonation is much more than a "distraction", for me.
(jazz) Bassists in the modern era, (let's say post 1960's - with the advent of live amplification, and/or recording studio self mix/monitoring), are expected to play in tune.
My 2 "cents"(!).
Thanks.

 

[Johnny L]

...I would always check my intonation against open strings. When playing a note a whole step above one of the middle strings (D or A) I could check it against the lower string (forming a major 6th) or the upper string (forming a perfect 4th). The resulting pitches are noticeably different, and depending on what key you are in, one will sound good and pure, and the other won't. I don't think most bassists need this level of intonation control (or am I wrong)?

I agree, pianos are AWESOME!

In my time with the bass, I'm now of the opinion that the doublebassist really needs to be seen as one would view a vocalist.

I can name a few jazz bassists who evidence this (e.g., Red Mitchell, Slam Stewart, Paul Chambers). I can imagine that there is at least one bassoonist who views his horn as an extension of his voice also.

 

[Steve Freides]

I second the recommendation in the article that every musician should take an acoustics class.

I grew up a math and science geek, and because my undergraduate music performance program _required_ everyone to take the 300-person acoustics lecture offered by the science department, I came to be the go-to guy who, every semester, would be asked to lead a help session for all the musicians who were clueless about what the science professor was talking about.

Someone needs to mention in this thread, however, that perfect intonation is, as a concept, an oversimplfication. If you look at a church organ, you will find that some of the string stops have a second stop with the same tone color but purposely tuned slightly out of tune with the main one, usually tuned sharp, and the combination of the two is what's used to produce a string _section_ sound on many an organ. And that's but one example - all the temperaments used in early epochs are another example of how contextual intonation is.

There is simply no such thing as perfect intonation for all places, purposes, and instruments. Keep on trusting your ears, and keep on working to make your ears more discriminating (read: better) about intonation. And for me as a bass player, would I be without either my knowledge of acoustics or my perfect pitch? Nope - they're both very helpful to me, and they let me progress faster than I would without them. But are they necessary? No. My good news is that, if I play slowly enough, I can always play in tune or know how to fix it when it's out. My bad news is that I have to listen to myself play all those times when I can't go about it slowly and carefully.

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

-S-

 

[Don Kasper]

Yes. I agree, Steve.
Perfect Intonation, as a goal, is an unattainable, ideal, "oversimplified" concept.
However, to paraphrase Justice Potter Stewart, regarding the inability to precisely define "poor intonation" - "...I know it when I hear it."
Thanks.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

You know it's impossible but you try for it every moment....it's kind of a zen thing.