Double Bass Intonation and tone

[Ed Fuqua]

Mea maxima culpa. That was Ben ALLISON I was alluding to, not Ben Wolfe. Ben A. plays a lot with Frank, so the "W" kind of disappeared.

 

[Robert Strickland]

Really like Ben Allison too. Caught his band a few months ago in Denver at Dazzle. Pushin the limits. Dug it.

 

[Michael Karn]

The Wilbur Haden thing came from Ari Roland, who was going to the New School at the time. Ben (who was going to NYU, as was i) was angry about the nickname at the time but later came to appreciate it.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Thanks for the clarification, Mike!

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Re: cello resonance, sympathetic vibrations and so on, yes the reason I am woodshedding the bass in 5ths tuning is to achieve exactly this sort of stuff...and yes, I like the zound very much.

And no, I can't demand exactly the same thing of the bass in 4ths tuning. If I try to follow those same "markers", I end up getting a little lost. Sure the open string pitches are the same as the violin, but that doesn't help me a whole lot for some reason. Maybe it's because I'm hearing things in some sort of hierarchy or something. I don't know. All I know is when I'm playing through scales and arpeggios, I can match open string pitches and harmonics with stopped notes far more often in 5ths tuning.

But the tone of the bass in general is different in 5ths tuning, though the range of notes can be made identical. It's just not the traditional sound to me, and I sometimes wish that didn't have to be the case. Hearing someone like Edgar Meyer do the cello suites in a hall is an experience no cellist can produce. It the bass speaking, and it sounds FANTASTIC.

To me, intonation's just not a simple thing. The best I can call it right now is sort of an ingredient for some musical expression, to give it a taste. The bass in 4ths is an ingredient, and lots of stuff tastes pretty darn good with it.

5ths tuning is probably the best way to bring out what you want in terms of physical feedback from the instrument itself. IIRC from some of the articles PDub posts about Red Mitchell - this was one of the key reasons why Red made the switch. But obviously there's a penalty associated with it. Really great if you can overcome it.

 

[Reiska]

Penalty? Have you ever tried 5ths tuning?

I think it`s a different instrument alltogether ( db in 5ths ) and therefore lots of things are technically harder, or easier to execute than on db tuned in 4ths. I don`t have to approach bass playing from the 4ths tuning standpoint, I can study and discover stuff with 5ths as the default tuning. I have this freedom in my musical surroundings.

I had this weird experience when I switched back to 4ths for couple of months and swapped the 5ths Spiro weichs to 4ths Sw`s. The sound and acoustic volume just disappeared. Same line of strings, same bass, same room. Another one happened when I tried 5ths for the very first time, I started to search the notes of Jean Sibelius`s Finlandia theme and wondered how it was so ridiculously easy to hear the intonation.

If you go wild enough to try 5ths, get the Spiro Red Mitchell mittel set right away ( no mix`n` match with solo / orch strings or such ) and let them be on your bass at least for a month. It propably takes time for your bass to open up for the low stuff, and you need that time to figure out what the h....

 

[Johnny L]

5ths tuning is probably the best way to bring out what you want in terms of physical feedback from the instrument itself...

I remember the first time I played with a group that had wind instruments in the lineup, specifically the bassoon. We basically doubled on the parts (a Mozart symphony, don't remember which).

It felt awesome to synch up like that and have a reference, intonation-wise, for every single note. That made a lasting impression on me. I was in 4ths tuning at the time.

While I agree with what you and Reiska say and even Red Mitchell's thoughts, I can't bring myself to say it is superior.

I think it may be more fair to say that 4ths tuning leans the bass towards a more social, collaborative role with other instruments re: resonance and its impact on a pleasing sound.

Sounding good, I've found, can mean much more than physical feedback from the instrument itself...though yes personally I like that sort of thing very much.

 

[Reiska]

I wouldn`t call 5ths superior either, but very, very different. For me, it`s a bit like The Ring on Lord Of The Rings, once touched by it you`ll never be the same again. I switched back to 5ths when I got my new bass a couple of months ago. First I wanted to try how it would sound in 5ths and I also thought that it would be good for a new carved instrument to open it up in 5ths a bit ( my luthier agreed ). I went thru the usual gateways, first strung it DADG, then DADA. DADA is kinda expanded orchestral tuning that gives plenty of resonance with intonation characteristics of full 5ths, but it doesn`t mess the ( 4ths ) fingerings up as completely as 5ths tuning does. Now my bass is " officially " in 5ths and set up with that in mind: Enough room for that fat C string to vibrate, low tension strings, wingless bridge and lightweight tailpiece. It plays effortlessly and sounds big.

But, I very much agree with Johnny L about the sounding good issue.

 

[Robert Strickland]

Thanks for the clarification, Mike!

P

I wouldn`t call 5ths superior either, but very, very different. For me, it`s a bit like The Ring on Lord Of The Rings, once touched by it you`ll never be the same again. I switched back to 5ths when I got my new bass a couple of months ago. First I wanted to try how it would sound in 5ths and I also thought that it would be good for a new carved instrument to open it up in 5ths a bit ( my luthier agreed ). I went thru the usual gateways, first strung it DADG, then DADA. DADA is kinda expanded orchestral tuning that gives plenty of resonance with intonation characteristics of full 5ths, but it doesn`t mess the ( 4ths ) fingerings up as completely as 5ths tuning does. Now my bass is " officially " in 5ths and set up with that in mind: Enough room for that fat C string to vibrate, low tension strings, wingless bridge and lightweight tailpiece. It plays effortlessly and sounds big.

But, I very much agree with Johnny L about the sounding good issue.

Never tried 5ths tuning, and frankly, I'm baffled by the whole idea. How I could now, as an old man, completely change all my fingerings is just beyond me. The thought of soloing gives me shudders!

 

[Reiska]

There`s only one way to find out

 

[Robert Strickland]

There`s only one way to find out

True. Do you use the same gauge strings? Or do you have to buy special 5ths strings?

 

[Reiska]

Special 5ths tuning strings and letting the bass to settle in for a new tuning for at least a month are needed to get the full experience ( low notes take time to wake up ). But I quess you get some of the intonation issue by tuning your present strings CGDA ( or DADA, or even your E to D )

 

[Robert Strickland]

Special 5ths tuning strings and letting the bass to settle in for a new tuning for at least a month are needed to get the full experience ( low notes take time to wake up ). But I quess you get some of the intonation issue by tuning your present strings CGDA ( or DADA, or even your E to D )

Well, that settles that. Can't change the strings on my one bass and then try to learn...too many gigs. So, have to wait until I can buy a second bass and use that for the "experiment".

Thanks Reiska.

 

[Reiska]

There you go sir!

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Penalty? Have you ever tried 5ths tuning?

Why yes I have. I still have my set but it's collecting dust.

There is one penalty for me that's huge: I can't play bebop heads as easily as I can in 4ths. It's not a problem for most people, because they generally don't play a lot of melodies. I prefer to have the resonance of 5ths but I'm not willing to make that sacrifice. Music > Tools

Other penalties:
* You can't share your bass with other players who play in 4ths
* Having to readjust. To me, 5ths has a harder mental mapping of all the notes. It's better organized in 4ths.
* Minor 3rds are a bitch - unfortunate for jazz
* etc

It's not superior but you do trade one problem set for another.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Well, that settles that. Can't change the strings on my one bass and then try to learn...too many gigs. So, have to wait until I can buy a second bass and use that for the "experiment".

There's a drawback to that approach. It takes longer to learn and far faster if you go "whole hog". Tried it, didn't work for me.

 

[Reiska]

Why yes I have. I still have my set but it's collecting dust.

There is one penalty for me that's huge: I can't play bebop heads as easily as I can in 4ths. It's not a problem for most people, because they generally don't play a lot of melodies. I prefer to have the resonance of 5ths but I'm not willing to make that sacrifice. Music > Tools

Other penalties:
* You can't share your bass with other players who play in 4ths
* Having to readjust. To me, 5ths has a harder mental mapping of all the notes. It's better organized in 4ths.
* Minor 3rds are a bitch - unfortunate for jazz
* etc

It's not superior but you do trade one problem set for another.

That is well said and analyzed, sir.

 

[Robert Strickland]

There's a drawback to that approach. It takes longer to learn and far faster if you go "whole hog". Tried it, didn't work for me.

Makes sense, but that's not an option for me. I'd have to stop gigging for months! I'd risk losing the regular gigs.