Intonation in relation to core wire size?

[AEVAREX]

Looking for any knowledge about larger VS smaller core wire in relation to string length to intonate becoming significantly longer or shorter?
My go to strings for many years now have been DR SS lo riders. I purchased a set of DR DDT's in the same gauge of the lo riders I use (45-105). Currently my D string saddle is set at almost max distance and has VERY little room for shortening string length to intonate. So I thought I'd ask the hive mind for any experiences in this matter as I don't want to put them on this bass if I know I'll potentially run out of adjustment room. I have trouble re using strings once they have been wound on ( I know most people don't care but my OCD you know lol ), and just don't want to waste any strings.

Mods move to hardware, setup, repair if you feel this belongs there tnx

 

[LetItGrowTone]

A stiffer (I mean the inner construction) string should usually need more intonation correction (the saddle would be set farther back, away from the neck), but a change in core wire diameter alone is probably not a good predictor of total string stiffness.

You could feel them both by hand, unmounted, but what you need to feel is small-angle flexibility, which is hard to isolate. But overall floppiness in the hands is probably a good test.

Another test I like, for a related but different property, is to hold the string by the ball, drop it on a smooth tiled floor, and see how insistently it straightens itself (or wants to re-coil itself into the loop it was in in the package). The most flexible strings I know of will fall almost in a heap, almost like twine.

 

[michael_t]

As a general rule, with two strings of the same gauge and the type of core wire (as in hex core vs. round core) but different core wire thickness, the one with the thicker core wire would need more compensation, meaning the saddle needs to be moved back farther.

 

[AEVAREX]

Appreciate the input @LetItGrowTone and @michael_t . That's two answers in the right direction!

 

[Killing Floor]

The harmonics of a string (standing wave) are fixed by the length of the wave, not the gauge of the core. Physics

 

[LetItGrowTone]

It isn't an ideal string. Stiffness matters more and more as the fretted note being played moves toward the saddle.

 

[FunkHead]

There's a reason for the Range of adjustment of your saddles. If you can get the intonation in spec then you're golden. If it sounds good it is good.

 

[AEVAREX]

I have a basic understanding of wave properties, nodes and harmonic order. And am not concerned with string feel or compliance. Was just in hopes for anyone's real world experience with altered saddle position, if any, when moving to a larger core size. Surely there are other factors at play here such as string total mass and string construction type.

I appreciate the time taken for all input

 

[Pier_]

for experience, usually "harder" strings tend to need adjustment moving the saddle toward the bridge.

an example: GHS Boomers, larger core, tend to intonate farther back compared to same gauges. few weeks ago I moved three basses from Rotosound BS66 (43-65-80-110) to GHS Boomers light (40-55-75-95) and I had to intonate every saddle back toward the bridge.
this on three basses.

 

[singlemalt]

I’m placing my bet on “won’t make much difference.”

My data set: I’ll switch from DR pure Blue VW, .040 G and lighter string gauges across the board, to TI jazz flats, with very little set up fiddling.

The strings are fairly close in diameter, and I think that’s the main factor.

But pretty much any string change means a quick run through truss rod, saddle height and intonation.

Being a thrifty kinda guy, if I have a string set I like, I’ll stick to it. Dead sounding rounds come off and go in the denatured alcohol string soaking tube. A fresh set of the same strings go on.

With a clean, soaked, pre cut and wound set of spares, it’s quick changing strings. The set up won’t change at all.

I draw the line at boiling strings, I’m an adult now. And I’ve burned up many a set and ruined pots when I forget about what’s on the stove. Oops.

 

[Kubicki Fan]

I have a basic understanding of wave properties, nodes and harmonic order. And am not concerned with string feel or compliance. Was just in hopes for anyone's real world experience with altered saddle position, if any, when moving to a larger core size. Surely there are other factors at play here such as string total mass and string construction type.

I appreciate the time taken for all input

It may be that the bridge was mounted not in an optimal position.

 

[Tim Skaggs]

Well, as Dunlop has demonstrated at least a couple times in the past several years, two sets of strings of the identical type & gauge can require different saddle settings to achieve proper intonation. In fact, sometimes saddle adjustment range wasn’t enough to achieve proper intonation, but Dunlop always replaced any sets I’ve bought that had this problem which has been a total of four sets.

I haven’t experienced this on other types / brands, but I have noticed flats & rounds of the same gauge / diameter take significantly different saddle settings to achieve proper intonation. Not surprising considering the difference in construction and probably core wire also.

As for string boiling; I never had any luck with that method, but soaking strings in acetone works well and there’s no heat involved, so you can let them soak as long or almost as short as you want. 30 minutes works pretty well.

 

[andare]

I noticed bigger strings require more length.

I'm still trying to intonate the E string from the Labella 1954s. It keeps going sharp. The saddle is pushed back a lot, the spring is all bunched up and I may have to shorten it. The other 3 intonated to almost the same length and way shorter than the E. Very strange.

 

[cxcxcx]

I don’t know if I’m missing something or piggybacking on something already mentioned - there are occasional instances of a bad string. It’ll have a underminant quirk or flaw in it that will not allow proper intonation and force you to set the appropriate bridge saddle in a weird place. Seems to happen more often with flatwounds than rounds, but it’s a rare thing either way.

If you get a certain brand and gauge set with a bad string and then buy the same set and gauge where all the strings perform as expected, you had a bad string. Some manufacturers will take the bad string back and replace it with new one.

 

[micguy]

There are two things at play here.

1) When you stretch a string, the tension goes up - that's where most of the need to move bridge saddles comes from.

2) A bigger core wire also makes the string more "dispersive" - that means the speed of sound isn't independent of frequency, and as such the harmonics aren't strictly integer multiples frequency wise of the fundamental.

If you had a solid E string, it would be noticeably dispersive/out of tune with itself - that's why we have windings. If you play a first harmonic of an open string and look via a tuner, you will usually see it's VERY close to in tune with the fundamental - as you haven't stretched the string and that harmonic is in tune, this shows that the saddle offset for intonating an octave (where you have stretched the string) is needed mostly due to the stretch.

 

[micguy]

The harmonics of a string (standing wave) are fixed by the length of the wave, not the gauge of the core. Physics

If the core gets big enough, the Physics says the overtones do vary from the resulting dispersion (they're not harmonic anymore). In most cases it's not an issue - the reason you have windings on your strings is to avoid having the overtones out of tune.

If you look at a vibraphone or xylophone, the bars don't have tension - all the restoring force while the bar is vibrating is from it's stiffness - think of the bars as very stiff strings, and you get the idea. In that case, the dispersion is very real - the overtones of a straight bar can get way out of tune with the fundamental. If you look closely, the bars are often undercut - the cross section is not uniform along the length of the bar. That is done to bring some of the overtones closer to being in tune.

 

[sawzalot]

The thoughts on the string gauges are all very good— but the bigger question is why is your D string saddle so far to one end of its range? I would focus on identifying the root cause of that and fixing it.

 

[Prodigus Filius]

I noticed bigger strings require more length.

I'm still trying to intonate the E string from the Labella 1954s. It keeps going sharp. The saddle is pushed back a lot, the spring is all bunched up and I may have to shorten it. The other 3 intonated to almost the same length and way shorter than the E. Very strange.

Could be nut slots. Did you do anything with them? Pressing on either side of nut and bridge on the string can help getting a pesky string intonated. I make sure all the ball ends are the same orientation too. And lastly, try for intonation with the E saddle fwd of the other saddles. Seems counter intuitive but it does occur, even with non tapered ball end strings.

 

[andare]

Could be nut slots. Did you do anything with them? Pressing on either side of nut and bridge on the string can help getting a pesky string intonated. I make sure all the ball ends are the same orientation too. And lastly, try for intonation with the E saddle fwd of the other saddles. Seems counter intuitive but it does occur, even with non tapered ball end strings.

I widened the nut slots, set the witness points, made sure the strings are not twisted.
The E string is still sharp with the saddle pushed back quite a bit, there's no way it intonates ahead of the other saddles

 

[Prodigus Filius]

I widened the nut slots, set the witness points, made sure the strings are not twisted.
The E string is still sharp with the saddle pushed back quite a bit, there's no way it intonates ahead of the other saddles

You didn't alter the front edge of the E nut slot by any chance when widening it. Can throw things off