Intonation still off - can't make strings any longer

[pdesjardins]

Hi. I have an Ibanez SR 4 string from about 1993. I love the bass and I used to feel like it was almost always in great tune.

Recently, I switched from medium-gauge (50-105) roundwound to heavy-gauge (50-110) flatwound strings. Lately, the bass hasn't sounded like it was as perfectly in tune.

I checked the intonation by comparing the open strings with the 12th fretted note. The fretted 12th was significantly sharp on each string. So I tried lengthening the strings by moving the bridge back, further from the nut.

On each string, I ran out of adjustment room (the bridge adjustment is all the way back) before the 12th fret matched the open string. All four strings are improved, but still noticeably sharp at the 12th. Also, the red thread wrapping at the end of the string is hanging over the bridge (not sure whether that matters).

My questions:

Would switching from medium to heavy strings make a big difference in intonation? I thought it would.

Is it possible that an Ibanez SR from 1993 might not have been designed for 50-110 gauge? Maybe the bridge adjustment range just can't handle the length that's required?

Would raising the action help? I like my action, so I don't really want to mess with it. But I'd rather be in tune when playing up the neck.

Anything else I can try to get the intonation closer?

Thanks for your help!

Peter

 

[Coolhandjjl]

If your body is a string through, consider remounting the string to top mount.
Press where the string breaks over the saddle. This is known as 'setting the witness point'.

 

[derg]

could be a set of bad strings. as mentioned above make sure the string breaks over both the nut and saddle are well set. also when tuned to pitch check the relief in the neck. I assume you went from rounds to flats - typically flats (even in the same gauge) will have a materially higher tension per string than roundwounds. This would result in a bow in the neck which would really affect the intonation. You may have to adjust the truss rod to compensate for the increased neck tension. Really a full setup would be the ticket here.

 

[yodedude2]

My questions:

Would switching from medium to heavy strings make a big difference in intonation? I thought it would.

Is it possible that an Ibanez SR from 1993 might not have been designed for 50-110 gauge? Maybe the bridge adjustment range just can't handle the length that's required?

Would raising the action help? I like my action, so I don't really want to mess with it. But I'd rather be in tune when playing up the neck.

Anything else I can try to get the intonation closer?

Thanks for your help!

Peter

1. i believe so.
2. possibly; assuming you are talking about the 'saddle' adjustment range.
3. bass guitar is a tempered instrument, so adjusting the action higher or lower probably (almost certainly) mean resetting the intonation. (edit: and possibly adjusting the truss rod.)
4. you could try relocating the bridge.

 

[strictlybass_ic]

Also, the red thread wrapping at the end of the string is hanging over the bridge (not sure whether that matters).

This is very concerning/confusing to me. Any strings i have owned only had thread wrap at the tuner end, not the ball end. Are you saying the wrap is sitting in or extends past the nut? If it is on the ball end of these strings is it riding on or extending past the saddle? While probably not the sole culprit either one of those scenarios sounds like bad news.

Also, a combination of heavier strings and switching to flats sounds like a definite truss rod adjustment trigger. Unless you're pretty savvy, or have some time to kill I would consider taking it in to a good tech for a full setup. Trying to get the truss rod, intonation, and action all balanced out can be a lengthy and frustrating process if you're not experienced. Plus, if there's still issues you'll at least know it was the gear and not you and be able to grab some different strings.

 

[pdesjardins]

Are you saying the wrap is sitting in or extends past the nut? If it is on the ball end of these strings is it riding on or extending past the saddle?

My strings have thread wrap on the ball end (also the tuner end). Yes, I pulled the saddle adjustment so far back that the ball-end thread wrap is extending past the saddle.

Thanks to all for the advice. This is really helpful!

Peter

 

[SteveCS]

Hi. I have an Ibanez SR 4 string from about 1993. I love the bass and I used to feel like it was almost always in great tune.

Recently, I switched from medium-gauge (50-105) roundwound to heavy-gauge (50-110) flatwound strings. Lately, the bass hasn't sounded like it was as perfectly in tune.

I checked the intonation by comparing the open strings with the 12th fretted note. The fretted 12th was significantly sharp on each string. So I tried lengthening the strings by moving the bridge back, further from the nut.

On each string, I ran out of adjustment room (the bridge adjustment is all the way back) before the 12th fret matched the open string. All four strings are improved, but still noticeably sharp at the 12th. Also, the red thread wrapping at the end of the string is hanging over the bridge (not sure whether that matters).

My questions:

Would switching from medium to heavy strings make a big difference in intonation? I thought it would.

Is it possible that an Ibanez SR from 1993 might not have been designed for 50-110 gauge? Maybe the bridge adjustment range just can't handle the length that's required?

Would raising the action help? I like my action, so I don't really want to mess with it. But I'd rather be in tune when playing up the neck.


Peter

When you say you have run out of adjustment, is the spring fully compressed or have you tried shortening it to create more scope for rear-ward adjustment? BTW, raising the action will make things worse as you will be adding even more tension when you have to push the strings further down to the fret.

 

[pdesjardins]

When you say you have run out of adjustment, is the spring fully compressed or have you tried shortening it to create more scope for rear-ward adjustment? BTW, raising the action will make things worse as you will be adding even more tension when you have to push the strings further down to the fret.

Yes, the springs are fully compressed. Also, I think the saddles ride in some grooves and they have reached the back of the groove. Since the fretted note is still significantly sharp, I don't think another 16th or 8th inch is going to help much.

Good point about raising the action making the 12th sharper, now the situation makes more sense. bassman4d521 pointed out that flatwounds require more tension. Maybe my action got a lot higher when I switched and I didn't notice. I'll look down the neck when I get back home.

Thanks again.

Peter

 

[Turnaround]

It is really important to set the witness points when installing new strings. Failure to do so can lead to intonation problems. To vibrate properly, the string needs to be in a straight line from nut to saddle, and with new strings, especially the fatter ones, the string arches up over the nut and saddles, creating a rounded hill that extends into the vibrating section of the string. This has the same effect as shortening the string a bit, so you need to set those witness points to flatten the string out. That will usually allow the saddle to be adjusted to proper intonation without running out of room on the bridge.

The witness point is that spot on the saddle and nut where the vibrating part of the string first makes contact. It needs to be well defined and not arched.

An ideal string is entirely flexible, and with an ideal string we would not have this problem. But strings have stiffness and that complicates matters. When a witness point is not set the stiffness of the string around the witness point compromises the effective contact point as far as vibration is concerned. We overcome (to a degree) that compromise by setting a clear witness point. To do that you simply press down form on the string on the vibrating side of the saddle to remove the hump - and the same at the nut.

You have probably heard that it is a good idea to stretch strings when they are new. It's not necessary to do so. What happens when you stretch the string is that the added tension has a tendency to flatten out the "humps" at the witness points, but it doesn't do that particularly well. On new strings, if you tune up then set the witness points you will find your tuning has gone flat. Retune and you will find that your tuning is pretty stable - no stretching required.

If you change gauge or type of strings, you will likely find that you will have to adjust intonation. When you are setting the witness points, you are putting a bit of a kink in the string right at the saddle. If you then have to move the saddle back to get the intonation right, that little kink will be in the vibrating length of the string. So it is a good idea to move the saddles back several turns before installing new strings. Then when you tune up and set the witness point you will likely find the saddles need to move a bit forward to intonate. Adjust the saddle forward, retune and set the new witness point. The previous "kink" will then be behind the new witness point and thus will have no effect on the vibrating part of the string.

If you have silk wraps on the bridge end of the string, they should be peeled back so that the silk is behind the witness point.

 

[Hopkins]

You need to restart. You changed to a bigger, higher tension string so you need to do a full set up. Intonation is the very last thing you should do when setting up your bass.

Check your neck relief first, capo the first fret and fret it at the 20th. The gap between the 8th fret and bottom of the string should be about .012 or about the thickness of a thick business card.

Then check your action, it will most likely not need to be adjusted if nothing moved.

After you do this, I have a feeling it will intonate properly because you most likely had way too much relief in the neck.

 

[danosix]

My strings have thread wrap on the ball end (also the tuner end). Yes, I pulled the saddle adjustment so far back that the ball-end thread wrap is extending past the saddle.
Thanks to all for the advice. This is really helpful!
Peter

If you adjust them back to where they are past the end of the silk, you might find yourself back into in-tune range - the stiffness of the silk will dramatically affect intonation in most cases.
The other thing you can do, if you are a confident and patient "tech" is shim the end of the neck, this will force you to change the height of the saddles higher and this difference in break angle (and the slight difference in the distance from nut to bridge) will usually can make up the difference you need.
The other thing it could be is I have found that occasionally a string is acting like it's too short (sharp) but ends up actually being too long - which you find out after you've adjusted past the adjustable range.

 

[derg]

It is an exercise in futility to randomly jump around changing string height, length, etc. The order of tasks in a setup is there to provide the proper base for each set of adjustments. First step is getting the proper relief in the neck. Next you'd check the nut height - a too-high nut results in slightly higher fretted notes in the first few frets, too low and you've got fret buzz. After that is sorted out then you look at the string height and if and where you have fret buzz. Next is setting the intonation. Last step for me is checking and possibly adjusting the pickup heights.

 

[JustForSport]

All the good advice you need is well explained above.
Be methodical, and in sequence, as above.
There should be no need to move the bridge back or shim if it was playing good before.
Just needs a new setup.

 

[lowerclef]

I checked the intonation by comparing the open strings with the 12th fretted note.

Peter

I believe you are supposed to compare the 12th fretted note to the 12th harmonic. Might be part of the problem right there?

 

[Turnaround]

I believe you are supposed to compare the 12th fretted note to the 12th harmonic. Might be part of the problem right there?

Not really. Theoretically there should be no difference between the open note and the harmonic (except the octave they occur in). But in fact there can be a difference. A string will behave properly if its mass is evenly distributed along the vibrating length of the string. In most cases it's fairly close, but with tapered strings the mass is not evenly distributed and that can cause the 12th fret harmonic to disagree slightly with the open string. So in that case what should you use as a reference with respect to the intonation at the 12th fret? Whether you choose the open string or the harmonic, you will be wrong - you have to find a usable compromise.

And even if you got the intonation perfect, if you are accompanying a properly tuned piano you will be off. A piano is tuned to a tempered scale where the pitches are altered from the pure pitch on each string so that it will sound in tune with itself. I won't go into the details here about tempered scales - you can look that up on the web. Tempering goes way back to the time of J.S. Bach (1685-1750 A.D). But fretted instruments are not tempered scale. So when you combine a fretted instrument with a piano (or other tempered scale instrument) someone is going to sound out of tune.

Why aren't fretted instruments tempered? Well, it's not really feasible. On a piano each string produces only one note. So each string can be tempered to work well with the others. On a fretted instrument, each string produces a different note for each fret. So you can't simply temper the tuning on each open string - you need to temper it at each fret on each string.

This is getting complicated. So don't bother to tune at all. Music is about the "feel" anyway.

 

[Kukulkan61]

I never seen or heard of strings with silk wrapping on the ball ends...weird..

 

[friendlybass]

You need to restart. You changed to a bigger, higher tension string so you need to do a full set up. Intonation is the very last thing you should do when setting up your bass.

Check your neck relief first, capo the first fret and fret it at the 20th. The gap between the 8th fret and bottom of the string should be about .012 or about the thickness of a thick business card.

Then check your action, it will most likely not need to be adjusted if nothing moved.

After you do this, I have a feeling it will intonate properly because you most likely had way too much relief in the neck.

This. Lots more tension means you gotta adjust your neck too to compensate. I recommend a pro unless you're a real setup wizard!

 

[friendlybass]

I never seen or heard of strings with silk wrapping on the ball ends...weird..

My rotosound swing bass, jazz monel flats, and funkmasters all have em. I think it's a brand thing

 

[tjh]

I never seen or heard of strings with silk wrapping on the ball ends...weird..

Silk colors | TalkBass.com

.. not uncommon ... it is mostly a flatwound thing though ...

 

[4bassjohn]

Hi Peter
I've run into this with Roto's before. I've tried them on my Warmoth and could not intonate the E string properly but Fender flats set up just fine. Had the same issue with the Fenders flats on my Thunderbird. Kind of weird. As a rule of thumb, the heavier the gauge, the further back you will need to set the saddle. You can try using a thinner gauge if they are available. I certainly don't want to say that this is a reflection on the quality of any of these strings. They are al great. It's just a flat wound thing. There is, certainly, the best advise and experience available to you here on talkbass so have fun getting this worked out.