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Double Bass Intonation Troubles While Descending
- Thread starter Christopher
- Start date
Thanks for the great explanation, Don! I see now how that's a very efficient way of determining exactly where your hand should be going. I also like the way it makes the intervals you have to think about smaller. Thanks again.
Thanks for the thanks, but the thanks go to Fred Zimmerman, who, thankfully, taught Linda McKnight, who taught me this, for which I am thankful, although I still have to pay her.
Yes. Kudos Don. Worked on some exercises with this last night. Much easier to determine position. Thanks for the tip.
Sometimes too much "science" muddies the water.
What Janos Starker (the reknowned cellist and pedagogue) says: "Solidify the note you're leaving."
In other words, think about where you're leaving from as much as where you're going, in either direction.
shifting down in pitch is nearly always more difficult, as we think less about it, plus it's moving against gravity, so there's more muscle movement to throw things off.
Just practice (*VERY*)slowly, record yourself (every minute of your practice session, too - and listen to yourself every 20 minutes or so) and form your own teaching phrase to rectify the situation.
What Janos Starker (the reknowned cellist and pedagogue) says: "Solidify the note you're leaving."
In other words, think about where you're leaving from as much as where you're going, in either direction.
shifting down in pitch is nearly always more difficult, as we think less about it, plus it's moving against gravity, so there's more muscle movement to throw things off.
Just practice (*VERY*)slowly, record yourself (every minute of your practice session, too - and listen to yourself every 20 minutes or so) and form your own teaching phrase to rectify the situation.
Slow is the key and recording yourself is good. Something else that's good is to record three octave scales on the piano at 30bpm as a reference to play along with. The piano don't lie.
Slow is the key and recording yourself is good. Something else that's good is to record three octave scales on the piano at 30bpm as a reference to play along with. The piano don't lie. [/B][/QUOTE]
Actually, the piano *does* lie. Midi/piano recordings are a great thing for excerpts for rhtythm, etc, but Equal Temperament is NOT IN TUNE, and practicing scales with a piano will NOT help your intonation for when you play in an orchestra. In your above suggestion, even though you're matching pitch at a slow speed, you're learning out of tune scales, and your ear knows it!
Even when you play with a piano in, say, a sonata, your ear makes the adjustment to what is really in tune, based on tonic. If you consciously try to play in "equal temperament" along with a piano the result will always be unsatisfying; "not quite right"; - never "in tune" - unless you're playing only literal unisons with the piano, with no chords sounding.
For a better layout of what is really in tune and what your ear really hears, visit:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
This is for a relatively cheesy new product but contains very important information.
To practice intonation you must practice with a droning pitch: tonic of the key you will be playing in. I recommend this rather than the product at the link I gave (but that product is teaching the right ideas...).
Jeez, I guess we should just get rid of those damn useless outta tune pianos? Look, the tempered scale is not enough over three octaves to ruin your sense of being tune and is a valuable point of reference. If the piano doesn't help your intonation playing with an orchestra it certainly won't hurt your intonation when playing with a piano. If you really wanna be anal about it record the scales on a guitar.
Jeez, I guess we should just get rid of those damn useless outta tune pianos? Look, the tempered scale is not enough over three octaves to ruin your sense of being tune and is a valuable point of reference. If the piano doesn't help your intonation playing with an orchestra it certainly won't hurt your intonation when playing with a piano. If you really wanna be anal about it record the scales on a guitar. [/B][/QUOTE]
Did I say it would ruin your intonation? Not exactly, just that it *won't help* for when you go to play in a group - 'cause good intonation is *not* that of a piano!
You can call it "Anal", but hey, if you're not practicing being really in tune, then you're practicing being out of tune. If you're not practicing with a metronome, or thinking rhythmically, you're practicing being not-in-time. Recording yourself in both situations will bear this out.
If you really want to be Anal about playing scales, then just play with the tonic note droning, and loudly. Practicing scales by matching pitches is not "analy" accurate no matter what you're comparing it to, but relating everything to tonic IS in tune.
As bass players it behoves us to think and hear in intervals, rather than matching pitches. All bass instruments must put their usually-harmonic-and-not-melodic pitches in relation to the tonic of the key. And of course when it's melody, it's gotta be that way even more-so.
The real catch is that most other players in, say, and orchestra, can't really hear our pitches, so we have to tune in reverse, make our fundamental in tune with their melody...
I'm only offering my observations and trying to help, just like the rest of us!
Can we talk?
The linked article on understanding temperaments is interesting, but I'm too old to start taking courses in physics and trig to fully understand it. And having comprehended it, then what? There's such aural chaos in an orchestra, what with the violins upping the A to 448 or more, the oboe stuck where it is (and not always 440) I believe everybody just breaks their a$$ just to make it "sound right". Which is tangentially your point, I know. One of my notions is to avoid open strings, to allow for more expressiveness, but also to allow maximum pitch adjustment. But friends in the highest rated orchestras dismiss that totally. And there are times when I just have to take the easy path. And you know there are passages where the only way to play a note is to hit a harmonic. It's a mess. An orchestra playing "in tune" is the result of a countless number of continuing minute adjustments made on the fly. It's marvelous.
Meanwhile, I tune with the fork at home, and with my Korg on the gig. In joints, I scope the piano first and scope-tune the bass accordingly.
[Edited by Don Higdon on 02-12-2001 at 01:24 PM]
The linked article on understanding temperaments is interesting, but I'm too old to start taking courses in physics and trig to fully understand it. And having comprehended it, then what? There's such aural chaos in an orchestra, what with the violins upping the A to 448 or more, the oboe stuck where it is (and not always 440) I believe everybody just breaks their a$$ just to make it "sound right". Which is tangentially your point, I know. One of my notions is to avoid open strings, to allow for more expressiveness, but also to allow maximum pitch adjustment. But friends in the highest rated orchestras dismiss that totally. And there are times when I just have to take the easy path. And you know there are passages where the only way to play a note is to hit a harmonic. It's a mess. An orchestra playing "in tune" is the result of a countless number of continuing minute adjustments made on the fly. It's marvelous.
Meanwhile, I tune with the fork at home, and with my Korg on the gig. In joints, I scope the piano first and scope-tune the bass accordingly.
[Edited by Don Higdon on 02-12-2001 at 01:24 PM]
""""The linked article on understanding temperaments is interesting, but I'm too old to start taking courses in physics and trig to fully understand it.""""
All you have to do is look at the chart and see that there are relative values for how far 'in-tune' varies from 'equal temperament' on particular notes in each scale - you don't have to measure anything, just be aware of it while you're practicing with a drone... Your ear really does all the work anyway - you just have to let it!
All you have to do is look at the chart and see that there are relative values for how far 'in-tune' varies from 'equal temperament' on particular notes in each scale - you don't have to measure anything, just be aware of it while you're practicing with a drone... Your ear really does all the work anyway - you just have to let it!
In the real world you need to be able to do both hear intervals and match pitch. Everything you've suggested has value and is worth consideration but is not the only way. I was perhaps a little hasty with the use of the term "anal" though and since you've been offended I'll retract.
Many years ago I encountered an untempered harpsichord and realized then I was in effect tempering scales when I transposed from one key to another. I don't consider using the piano as a pitch reference to be practicing out of tune. Rather I am practicing the tempered scale that by virtue of the piano's position as the primary composition tool in modern western music is simply one of the ways I hear music. I appreciate your quest for purity of intonation (I think it's something we're all thinking about) but in my experience once you factor in all the real world outta tune-ness the advantages of playing along with the piano greatly out-weigh the drawbacks. To be clear about this I'm suggesting it only as an exercise and not how one needs practice all scales always. The more gross the tuning problems the more value it has.
Yeah, I think what I do is play off the tonic as much as possible when practicing - trying to perfect my ear for intervals based on the tonic as kpo said. However, like Don says, the thing about playing in a group, even a small one, is that you use your practiced knowledge, or even your 'perfect pitch' if that's something you happen to possess, as a starting point and usually have to make some adjustments.
For that "absolute" sense of pitch, I generally tend to practice with my chromatic tuner in front of me - I just leave it on for a while without looking at it (with my eyes closed), playing scales. After a while I stop at a random note in the scale and check it against the tuner. Then I try to analyze how I got off (I am usually at least a little off). This all done with nothing droning. Don't know if this is "right", but that's how I do it.
For that "absolute" sense of pitch, I generally tend to practice with my chromatic tuner in front of me - I just leave it on for a while without looking at it (with my eyes closed), playing scales. After a while I stop at a random note in the scale and check it against the tuner. Then I try to analyze how I got off (I am usually at least a little off). This all done with nothing droning. Don't know if this is "right", but that's how I do it.
That's not helping you hear any better and your wasting time. You'll develop your ear faster and you won't have to,"analyze how you got off," if you use an electronic tuning device that plays pitches. I have a little Yamaha gizmo the size of a cassette tape that is a metronome and tuner. It will play any pitch and can be tuned within a frequency range. It's loud, and can make you insane if used in long stretches. I highly recommend it. Buy something that will drone pitches while you practice.
Thanks for the suggestion. My teacher told me about the tuner thing, I am surprised you think its a complete waste of time (not saying you're wrong, your suggestion seems more productive to me actually)....
One could argue about "wrong", but the reality is that your scale may have been very honestly in tune, but the meter only knows how to read notes that fit into the equal temperament system (unless you have a relaly expensive model that changes tempereaments) - and Equal Temp. is really racously out-of-tune!
You're actually **uncorrecting** your scale just to please a "silly little meter"!
This reminds me of a story Gage told me. At the I.S.B. convention, Ray Brown told a guy he could help him with his question, and to come by his hotel room the next morning. At 8 AM, as the guy walked down the corridor, coming from the room was the sound of Ray bowing long, slow scales.
I figured out my metronome has this feature, the problem is that its damn loud and it bugs the $#$ out of my wife. I guess I will need to do that part of my practicing while she's at work...
