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Double Bass Intonation Troubles While Descending

#43
Don!
It's been a while since I've posted (you know what it's like when you're on tour) and I thank you for your valuable advice on orchestral playing. I'm always looking to expand my horizons. While at a gig in Trois-Rivieres (Three Rivers) Quebec Canada I noticed that I was having difficulty maintaining strict intonation using the left hand as if it were one large finger restricted to traveling the ebon stretch of double bass we lovingly call the "fingerboard" in "block formation." I'd like your input as to how I could "explain the shift," especially in performace situations when the "heat is on."
Could you please elaborate on the following example you gave earlier in the forum?

"1 is on Ab, and you're going to play C with 4. The explanation is "1 goes to 4", i.e., 1 goes from Ab to Bb, and 4 lands on C. Or, playing Bb with 4, shifting to play D with 2 and Eb with 4, you say "1 goes 1 and a half over 4", i.e., 1 will land on Db - 1 1/2 over Bb. On DOWNSHIFTS, you must be able to say where 4 will go in relation to the current position, e.g. "4 goes to 2" or "4 goes 1 under 1". "

By the way, while tour Quebec I had the opportunity to hear some amazing French-Canadian folk music, which I would like to transcribe for the double bass. Perhaps a great Canadian Double bass virtuoso could record them! It would be valuable to have a counterpart to the CD of Stephen Foster songs. Does anyone know any Canadian bassists who may be interested?

Until next time!

Basserino!
 
#44
First of all, you can't try new things in a performance. This concept has to be done in your practice sessions where you're free to stop, think it out, do it, go back and do it again. When you truly learn it, it will become automatic, and easy.

No matter what note you're playing with what finger, your fingers will be in a frame, a half step apart. Even though you're only playing one note, you should be aware of what notes are under the unused fingers.

On every upshift, you must be able to say where your first finger will end up in relation to the present 'frame'.

In the example, on the G string, if you're playing Ab with 1, unused 2 is at A, and unused 4 is at Bb. Assuming the passage calls for the next note to be C played with the 4th finger, 1 will end up at Bb, which is where 4 is now. So the shift is explained as "1 goes to 4."
Next example starts in the same position as the first example. On the G string, assume you're playing a Bb with 4, and the passage next calls for a D played by 2, then Eb played by 4. You make one shift, in which 4 ends at Eb, 2 ends at D, 1 ends at Db. Db is 1 1/2 steps above the note where 4 is now (Bb), so the shift is explained as 1 goes 1 1/2 over 4.

I'll stop here, and you can post or e-mail if you follow it before I go to downshifts. I'll just say again, that this gets learned slowy, is confusing at the start, then suddenly the fog lifts and you're alert to every note. An unyielding teacher helps.
 
#45
Don,

You are right. practicing does help this technique grow. thank you. i think i getting it now. could you please continue!!!

A question for you. do you use the "5 digit" (4 fingers and one thumb) technique in the lower positions of the bass. in the half position to third or fourth position....(i think that is what the simandle calls them)

thanks again don!!!!

Basserino!!!!
 
#46
rino:
"5 digit technique" is a new name for me. If I'm in half position, 1 is on Ab, 2 on A, 4 is on Bb. I use 1,2,4 through the octave, where I use 1,2,3.
In down shifts, you explain the shift in terms of where 4 is going relative to the existing position, e.g., 4 goes to 2, 4 goes 1 under (below) 1, whatever.
The tricky part is when you cross strings and you shift up even though the note is going down, and vice versa.
 
#48
I used to find that true, I think it is just easier to hear the note progression while ascending. But as they say, "practice makes perminent", not perfect, cause if you practice wrong you won't play right.

And it is true that the better you get the worse you will think you are, cause you will be able to see where you need/want to be better. The better you get, the harder it is to improve.
 
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#49
Originally posted by ade
no one on this old subject made reference to shifts that will place the hand in a good spot for following notes on other strings which, of course, takes some amazing planning when sight readin' .
ade
Click to expand...

Sounds like a subject for another thread, maybe that's why it wasn't mentioned; or am I missing something?

FWIW, I don't think playing across the strings while sight reading takes amazing planning. When your sight-reading there's not really much time to consider how best to finger a passage. I think this is an area where all the years you've spent studying and playing help the hand work on autopilot. If you've practiced going across the strings there's really not much to plan. The only time I'm really thinking about fingerings is when I'm learning a piece or passage and I want to consider the options in an effort to make it as clean and easy as possible. I don't know how anyone could "plan" fingerings while sight reading in time.
 
#51
Originally posted by ade
I suppose if you read two or three bars ahead as I was told to achieve many years ago and yet to master, but I assume most string players including piano work this out in advance and rely on there memory.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I read about a bar ahead, not two or three (yet). And I'm not doing any conscious thinking about my left hand; I'm not planning, the fingerings are pretty much automatic. The kind of fingerings I was talking about working out in advance are things like the fourth movement of Beethoven's ninth symphony, or stuff like I'm currently working on: the Allemande from the third Bach cello suite, Nanny's Vingt Etudes et Virtuosite #3, and Donna Lee.

I worked out fingerings for the Bach to solve musicality issues. The phrases have to be smooth. But the Allemande is a single instrument playing a two part counterpoint, so you want to think about the best fingering to bring that out. I worked out some fingerings for the Nanny because etude #3 is just some hard ****. And Donna Lee played arco in Db major is just inhuman.

IMO, working out fingerings speeds up the process of learning a piece and gets you onto playing the music faster, without having to think about what a good fingering would be while you're trying to make the music. Get that part out of the way. When I'm approaching something new I'll read through it slowly, stopping at any particularly challenging parts. I'll work out a fingering, mark it in the score, and move on. Over time I might change some of those fingerings, or mark in fingerings for other spots, as I address phrasing issues and concentrate on the music.

If you're not working out some fingering issues for this kind of stuff, you must be an amazing player. Here's a true story: I heard of a guy who can sight *sing* three measures ahead of what he's playing!
 
#52
To get even further from this thread topic, do think in terms of chord structure (Major, minor, etc.) when working out hand positions for peices like Donna Lea and if so would there be a similar technique for visualizing Bach that you know of?
ade
 
#53
Originally posted by ade
To get even further from this thread topic, do think in terms of chord structure (Major, minor, etc.) when working out hand positions for peices like Donna Lea and if so would there be a similar technique for visualizing Bach that you know of?
ade
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you mean but, when I'm working something out, I certainly try to recognize scalar passages and arpeggios for what they are and try to understand what's going on harmonically, but that is more for playing in tune and interpretation than for fingerings (I'm taking "hand positions" to mean fingerings), although sometimes interpretation influences fingerings as in the Allemande.

For working out fingerings, I start out approaching everything the same way: I look for the easiest way to navigate the geography sounding good. But as I discover the music, hearing the phrases and the mood, I'll alter some fingerings to accomodate that; or more precisely, to bring that out of the music more.

If you rephrase the question I might be able to better answer it.
 
#54
Mr.K,
This is a discussion between a popular music bassist and classical musician. My humble approach to the bass starts with the chord structure of the music which is made clear on the page in front of you. My hand positions or fingering positions are planned so I might sustain notes with a minimum of shifting (for instance playing the tonic and the 10th in harmony. As I understand it, a classical musician interprets the structure of the peice from the music as a whole and plans his performance through study and practise. Both methods can produce a beautiful result but you may not agree.
ade
 
#55
Exactly. I play classical music and I wouldnt think "Ok. this is a Bb7 chord. I'll play this fingering." But I'll just figure it out before (at least for hard or awkward bits, otherwise your relying on instinct).

When I used to play jazz on BG, i would have seperate fingerings for different scales so everything would depend on that. But in classical that doesnt really apply.
 
#56
Originally posted by ade
This is a discussion between a popular music bassist and classical musician. My humble approach to the bass starts with the chord structure of the music which is made clear on the page in front of you.
Click to expand...

No, it's not. I'm much more of a jazz musician than I am a classical musician. Earlier in the thread I thought we were talking about fingerings for written lines, eg. Bach, the head of Donna Lee, etc., so that's what I was addressing.

But, when I'm looking at a chart/playing changes I'm not thinking about fingerings, nor am I concerned with where my hand is positioned. It's automatic. Maybe that's the result of having studied, I don't know. But for the sake of discussion, let's say I have almost a dozen different ways of playing a three octave F7 arpeggio (I've never counted, but I'm sure it's close to that), even if I'm not playing a three octave F7 arpeggio in it's entirety in my line (which would be rare, if ever), all of those possible positions and fingerings are worked out. The result is, hopefully, that whatever I hear in my head, my hand is already going where it needs to be. And unfortunately, any limitations in my technique will alter what I play.

I read in another one of your posts that you've never had any formal training. I think that may be the only difference between us.
 
#60
Originally posted by Don Higdon
This is not about what kind of shift to make, but how to think about whatever shift you choose. Waiting for Chris.
Click to expand...

Hi everybody, this is my first post and I want to get something clear right away, I am in no way shape or form associated with Bassturbator. I saw the name and thought it was funny, so I did a little variation on the theme. But I did this before I actually read any of his posts. When I did get aroung to reading a couple of his posts I realized he is not only a idiot but a jerk as well. So now that I have got that cleared up. I have a question about this expaining the shift, well a question on how I would explain a specific shift. In the Scherzo of Beethoven's 5th, how would you explain the shift from the f on the d-string to the Ab above the half string harmonic on the G-string. I have been working on this passage and cannot seem to get it, I was hoping you could help Don.
Basturbasso
 

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