Irreversible climate damage is imminent

[Lonesomedave]

.....Let me be the first to break it to you - the USA is the gold standard that all other countries justify their laziness. If USA got its act together so would nearly everybody.

i've got to call BS on that one...

so, once again...it's ALL our fault...never mind that by far the worst offenders are on the other side of the world....oh, no, no, no...it's the fault of the USA...well done

well, i have news for you...Russia, China and India don't take their marching orders from us....they, like the US, have fragile economies....especially, recently, china

so, i see arguments such as yours as not so much wanting to solve the problem, as wanting us to
change our lifestyle, spend lots of money, give away lots of money and, essentially, own the whole problem as as an American problem....caused by americans, and, therefore, to be fixed by Americans

nope...don't buy it...and since those other countries will continue to do whatever they want regardless of what we americans say or do....and since they are by far the worst offenders....

i say, buddy, we aint gonna take the lead on this one...this is a classic case where leading from the rear makes perfect sense

 

[vin*tone]

I think you're missing my point. Here in Australia we use the same argument except we replace the words "Russia/China/India" with "USA". Every country has its own way of deflecting responsibility just as you have done there but with their own tweak on the rationale.

The worst offenders in the world are those whose per-capita CO2 output are the largest.

The countries you mention are still catching up on The US. India and China are in the process of expanding their middle class ie. they are striving to emulate the high CO2 lifestyle of the average American. If you think they are "the worst offenders" now…. you aint seen nothin yet.

 

[DerHoggz]

i've got to call BS on that one...

so, once again...it's ALL our fault...never mind that by far the worst offenders are on the other side of the world....oh, no, no, no...it's the fault of the USA...well done

well, i have news for you...Russia, China and India don't take their marching orders from us....they, like the US, have fragile economies....especially, recently, china

so, i see arguments such as yours as not so much wanting to solve the problem, as wanting us to
change our lifestyle, spend lots of money, give away lots of money and, essentially, own the whole problem as as an American problem....caused by americans, and, therefore, to be fixed by Americans

nope...don't buy it...and since those other countries will continue to do whatever they want regardless of what we americans say or do....and since they are by far the worst offenders....

i say, buddy, we aint gonna take the lead on this one...this is a classic case where leading from the rear makes perfect sense

I just want to say I completely disagree with this, and my post before it was meant in jest.

 

[will33]

What's up with Qatar?......geez.

 

[vin*tone]

^^ Oil. They pretty much brush their teeth with it.

For those that think that low per capita emissions countries are "the worst offenders" what you're actually saying is: Its OK to release as much CO2 as you like if your country has low a population.

 

[bolophonic]

What's up with Qatar?......geez.

They are just living life to the hilt. One of them is also feeding a plastic bag to a sea turtle in your honor as we speak.

 

[bolophonic]

i've got to call BS on that one...

so, once again...it's ALL our fault...never mind that by far the worst offenders are on the other side of the world....oh, no, no, no...it's the fault of the USA...well done

well, i have news for you...Russia, China and India don't take their marching orders from us....they, like the US, have fragile economies....especially, recently, china

so, i see arguments such as yours as not so much wanting to solve the problem, as wanting us to
change our lifestyle, spend lots of money, give away lots of money and, essentially, own the whole problem as as an American problem....caused by americans, and, therefore, to be fixed by Americans

nope...don't buy it...and since those other countries will continue to do whatever they want regardless of what we americans say or do....and since they are by far the worst offenders....

i say, buddy, we aint gonna take the lead on this one...this is a classic case where leading from the rear makes perfect sense

So basically, you cannot reconsider your own personal impact on the planet because you refuse to be out-polluted by the Chinese? Sounds like you really have your priorities in order there, Dave.

 

[DerHoggz]

So basically, you cannot reconsider your own personal impact on the planet because you refuse to be out-polluted by the Chinese? Sounds like you really have your priorities in order there, Dave.

Freedom: Exceptionally American

 

[duff beer]

That same line is used by nearly every country on the planet. If they don't clean up their act then why should we bother?

I didn't say that. I said whatever we (meaning Canada) can do with our measly 35 million people is a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things. China opens up what...40 or 50 new coal burning plants every single year? Their population is 40 times greater than ours and nothing Canada does will have any real effect...we are just too small population wise to make any difference.

Yes, we can do better, but the ones who have the most to lose should be cleaning up their act because if climate change is really happening, they will suffer first.

 

[will33]

They are just living life to the hilt. One of them is also feeding a plastic bag to a sea turtle in your honor as we speak.

#/!@&?% plastic......I hate that crap.

 

[Lonesomedave]

So basically, you cannot reconsider your own personal impact on the planet because you refuse to be out-polluted by the Chinese? Sounds like you really have your priorities in order there, Dave.

uh....no

what i am saying is, it does not matter if we americans stopped putting co2 in the atmosphere completely, it would not matter because the runaway train is on the other side of the planet

what i am also saying is, i refuse to damage OUR fragile economy further while this is going on

especially in light of the fact that man made global warming may or may not be the problem that we are assured by it's proponents that it is

and especially in light of the fact, as the title of this thread says, that irreversible harm is IMMINENT....if it's so imminent, there's nothing we can do anyway

or was that maybe just the littlest bit of exaggeration?

 

[BawanaRik]

I think you're missing my point. Here in Australia we use the same argument except we replace the words "Russia/China/India" with "USA". Every country has its own way of deflecting responsibility just as you have done there but with their own tweak on the rationale.

The worst offenders in the world are those whose per-capita CO2 output are the largest.

The countries you mention are still catching up on The US. India and China are in the process of expanding their middle class ie. they are striving to emulate the high CO2 lifestyle of the average American. If you think they are "the worst offenders" now…. you aint seen nothin yet.

Taxing oil as it comes out of the ground would address this issue universally.

It would be an unprecedented chance for the nations of the world to work together to solve this issue. Or if it isn't an issue to prevent it from being one.

 

[Lonesomedave]

.....The worst offenders in the world are those whose per-capita CO2 output are the largest.

i disagree there too....the worst offenders are the one's who are putting the most total co2 in the atmosphere (assuming for the sake of argument that the alarmists are right)

for this purpose, the planet does not care how big your population is, it only cares how much total co2 you put out, so i would ask if anybody has a similar chart to yours, but one which focuses on the total co2 output of a country, rather than per capita

 

[will33]

Taxing oil as it comes out of the ground would address this issue universally.

It would be an unprecedented chance for the nations of the world to work together to solve this issue. Or if it isn't an issue to prevent it from being one.

So what glorious utopian entity gets these taxes, and what do they do with them?

 

[will33]

i disagree there too....the worst offenders are the one's who are putting the most total co2 in the atmosphere (assuming for the sake of argument that the alarmists are right)

for this purpose, the planet does not care how big your population is, it only cares how much total co2 you put out, so i would ask if anybody has a similar chart to yours, but one which focuses on the total co2 output of a country, rather than per capita

Umm.....the chart shows exactly that...look at the color code.

Agreed though, it would be easier to comprehend if everything wasn't a slightly different shade of "marketeer green".

 

[jmattbassplaya]

Taxing oil as it comes out of the ground would address this issue universally.

It would be an unprecedented chance for the nations of the world to work together to solve this issue. Or if it isn't an issue to prevent it from being one.

No, thanks. Gasoline prices have gone up over 60 cents in my area within the span on 3 months. I have zero interest in raising those prices more.

 

[Lonesomedave]

Umm.....the chart shows exactly that...look at the color code.

Agreed though, it would be easier to comprehend if everything wasn't a slightly different shade of "marketeer green".

could be, but i found one for 2011....here are the top 10:


Source: Tom Boden, Gregg Marland, and Bob Andres
Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center
Oak Ridge National Laboratory

doi 10.3334/CDIAC/00001_V2011

RANK NATION CO2_TOT

1 CHINA (MAINLAND) 1917621
2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 1546903
3 INDIA 475238
4 RUSSIAN FEDERATION 465954
5 JAPAN 329469
6 GERMANY 214524
7 CANADA 148375
8 ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN 146824
9 UNITED KINGDOM 142584
10 REPUBLIC OF KOREA 138852

so, while the US does certainly contribute greatly to the co2, china, india, and russia combined are twice as great....and while we, at least, have made SOME effort to curb ours, they have not made any at all

 

[HolmeBass]

uh....no



what i am saying is, it does not matter if we americans stopped putting co2 in the atmosphere completely, it would not matter because the runaway train is on the other side of the planet



what i am also saying is, i refuse to damage OUR fragile economy further while this is going on



especially in light of the fact that man made global warming may or may not be the problem that we are assured by it's proponents that it is



and especially in light of the fact, as the title of this thread says, that irreversible harm is IMMINENT....if it's so imminent, there's nothing we can do anyway



or was that maybe just the littlest bit of exaggeration?

Simply not true. Look at that chart again. We're in the top 10 of global AND per capita CO2 emitters here in the US. Our pollution is not a drop in the bucket, and if we cut our emissions by half it would have a huge positive impact, not the least of which would be a moral high ground to start penalizing other CO2 emitters rather than gutting that every time it comes up in the UN. Global warming is going to take a bigger bite out of our economy each year we continue with your kind of backwards looking rationalizations, Dave. Now is the time to act, to lead. You believe in American exceptionalism, and I think you do, then let's be exceptional at something other than killing other people. Like when we went to the moon.

 

[Lonesomedave]

Simply not true. Look at that chart again. We're in the top 10 of global AND per capita CO2 emitters here in the US. Our pollution is not a drop in the bucket, and if we cut our emissions by half it would have a huge positive impact, not the least of which would be a moral high ground to start penalizing other CO2 emitters rather than gutting that every time it comes up in the UN. Global warming is going to take a bigger bite out of our economy each year we continue with your kind of backwards looking rationalizations, Dave. Now is the time to act, to lead. You believe in American exceptionalism, and I think you do, then let's be exceptional at something other than killing other people. Like when we went to the moon.

not rationalizing at all...

i have already said that i am neither in the camp of chicken-little alarmists nor of climate change deniers....i have said let's don't rush into anything

and, BTW, i love the way the alarmists have labeled the doubters DENIERS, like holocaust deniers, implying that they (the alarmists) are so completely in the right, that anybody who disagrees with them is simply irrational....way to win your argument by definition.

i feel trapped in the middle by both sides, but i do know this....i will not be stampeded into immediate action by people running around claiming the sky is falling

and, PS-edit...what does "imminent" mean, anyway? is it imminent or is it not....if it is truly imminent then we can't do anything about it anyway....if it is not truly imminent, then the one's who say it is are either mistaken or are lying for their own purpose....i don't think it's all that imminent....but it might be....and i am willing to take steps to curb our c02 output....as long as they don't cost too much, hurt our fragile economy, and/or do nothing but line the pockets of connected people, who, as far as i can see, only have a connection to green, in that they line their pockets with green

 

[will33]

not rationalizing at all...

i have already said that i am neither in the camp of chicken-little alarmists nor of climate change deniers....i have said let's don't rush into anything

and, BTW, i love the way the alarmists have labeled the doubters DENIERS, like holocaust deniers, implying that they (the alarmists) are so completely in the right, that anybody who disagrees with them is simply irrational....way to win your argument by definition.

i feel trapped in the middle by both sides, but i do know this....i will not be stampeded into immediate action by people running around claiming the sky is falling

Sounds like a reasonable position to me. Plenty of alarmists will look down their nose as if you're somehow inferior if you don't agree with them. They get into a sort of group-think where they get all hyped up by having others of agreeable opinions agreeing with them. There's a psychological term to explain that sort of behavior, but it escapes me at the moment..