I'm sure a lot of people on both sides of the fence have given up on this thread already, but I just wanted to make one last post before I bow out. It's been fun debating, but I think I've already said what needed to be said and no one's really addressed me directly. I really should be working.
It seems that many dj's and their advocates are not interested in one of the qualities I've learned is truly necessary to be a professional or, for that matter any good musician. That quality is humility. The arrogance displayed by some in the community was pretty pathetic.
You make a good point, and I respect your opinion. I'm honestly surprised how anyone can refuse to be humble since many more people will respect you. However, I do not believe humility or any personality trait to be the mark of a musician, even a great one. Some of the most famous musicians in the world have been known by some to be arrogant jerks, or scary even. Miles Davis and Charles Mingus come to mind. They were certainly great musicians, but as people... eh.
My opinion, and apparently of others on c.l., is that a dj is and can be considered an entertainer, only in the same way a radio dj is. The dj plays or manipulates pre-recorded, either by them via samples, or available music made by OTHERS, that are musicians. A musician is an individual that can create music using a musical instrument.
Sampling is one thing, but it still does not address turntable scratching. The debate for whether the turntable is an instrument is a whole other can of worms, but with scratching a DJ makes unique, on the fly sounds from it. While it is true that there needs to be a record on the turntable, any record can be used to scratch. I tend to think of the record on the turntable much like how a saxophone needs a reed, or a bass needs strings. Yes. Different records change the tone of the instrument like different strings on a bass!
In fifty years, ask - what name do you think people will remember, DJ Krush, or John Coltrane? Or, DJ- whoever, or The Beatles"
I know that I might get flacked for this, but I think in the sad state the popular music is in today, I'm not even sure if most kids today will know who John Coltrane is in fifty years unless they look up their history books. Jaco Pastorius, to give a bass player example, isn't known by most people outside of fusion and bass circles. The Beatles are an anomaly though. They're written in every book documenting 20th century music. I doubt anybody could forget them if they tried.
DJ Krush is an excellent artist and I believe him to be a musician. Same with DJ Qbert, Mixmaster Mike, and the rest of the Invisibl Skratch Piklz when they were together. I'm not sure how popular they will be in 50 years since I'm not sure how well their careers will be documented or how many people who know them today will pass their music down to their kids like with The Beatles or Jimi Hendrix. However, I do believe that in 50 years people will eventually accept the DJ/turntablist/whatever as a valid musician. A lot of them are just scratching the surface of what they can be capable of (pardon the pun).
I'm not sure what the future holds, but hopefully in 50 years people will remember a song by Herbie Hancock called "Rock It," his biggest mainstream hit and the song that brought scratching to the masses. Funny that it came from a jazz artist.
You also have to consider the sheer amount of people that took up guitar and band instruments versus people who wanted to become DJs. There was a big boom of DJs in the 90s and stuff, but very few of them get past the "mix for parties" stage and into creating their own music or doing scratches. It is a tough market to compete in and there isn't much radio time for a lot of those artists, though plenty of the mix DJs are on rap and pop music stations.
I also stated that I believe that a dj cannot truly be a musician, until they could arrive at a club, and play a song using their equipment as a musical instrument to create a piece of music that is truly their own, or a classic standard, and entertain an audience as real musicians do every night in clubs all over the world.
Standards like this song?
It's incredibly difficult to do, but you can scratch out melodies.
Most people performing in clubs are in bands so there's more than one of them. Most DJs are by themselves, which is actually an advantage for club owners. This makes me think of something. What about the drummer? Most people will not watch a drummer play without the rest of the band, so he cannot easily just show up at a gig and play on his own. Same for lots of other instruments that need band accompaniment.
I respect the 'right' of a dj to work in that field, even though that means I might lose a gig- after all, this is a free enterprise system. I have a few friends that are DJ's. I'd never fault them for taking a job. However, A GIG is for musicians.
True that man. I believe that there is a place for bands and a place for DJs and there's more than enough room for both. I agree that people shouldn't fault losing a gig to a DJ, especially since at some clubs there's no way in hell an audience will take to a band over a dude who spins their favorite rap and dance music.
ALL of the musicians I know have spent a considerable amount of their adult lives learning the skills necessary to play their chosen instrument, no exceptions. They still practice regularly, as I DO, acquire new tunes into their mental repertoire, buy better equipment to improve their sound, play and exchange ideas with other musicians, and generally grow musically and as human beings.
True dat. I think that the mark of a musician is obviously keeping at an instrument. I wouldn't consider all those people who take up guitar for a month and give up on it musicians, but there's lots of guys who play an instrument for awhile, take a break, and come back to it. I still consider them musicians. Guys who learn one song to impress girls and never do anything again? I wouldn't consider them musicians because they haven't fully taken up that identity. They haven't dedicated themselves.
Like I said earlier, most DJs who don't go past the mix for parties stage. Those are guys I wouldn't consider musicians. However, there's those DJs that do buy better/more equipment, exchange ideas and techniques with others (ever heard of a Crab Scratch?), and grow musically. Many of them expand their listening taste as well, which is what I did when I took up bass.
What is necessary to be a dj is 1. Buy some really good dj equipment. 2. Get a lot of pre-recorded music to use. 3. Learn to work the equipment. 4. Book yourself after you become skilled enough to use the gear.
See above. While this is true for many DJs, there are lots of cats that go beyond that. However, to put a spin on things there are many guys who pick up a good bass, listen to a lot of pre-recorded music to learn tunes, learn to work the equipment, and then become skilled enough to get gigs. I know you didn't mean it that way, but hey.
Maybe I'm too old to get it, and I freely admit that, but I just can't see Eminem or 50 cent or much of what classifies as music as any kind of real cultural advancement. It looks like we're o.k. as a society to allow the dumbing down and cheapening of our music and everything else. Thankfully, I do hear real music created by young gifted players, and that is a wonderful thing.
While I'm skeptical of the "real music" comment (Zorn and Cage have skewed my perspective of music significantly), I totally agree with you man. While I think it's ok to dumb down music since that's been happening for centuries as popular music evolves, I think we're at a point now where it's "How dumb can you get?" Much of what passes as rap production nowadays is limited to 3 note phrases on a Casio keyboard. Pop music hasn't changed much in the past 20 years or so. However, a lot of it has changed slightly due to advancements in music technology. The synth is an example. Whether it's for the better or worse is up to the person.
This thread should be in Misc. btw.
Yeah. It stopped being humorous the minute it started.
I'm surprised that it has stayed relatively calm though.
