Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Like many on this thread have already said the answer to the OP's question is ... maybe. A tube DI can certainly warm up your output but it may not solve the problem your working on.
I have used one or another a tube DI for quite a while and am a firm believer in how they can bring nice depth and warmth to your tone.
I have used a Mesa Walkabout DI for 15+ years. Its DI signal path includes the Master's 12AX7 segment and is wonderful to work with, and definitely delivers a clean (as long as you don't push the gain), warm tube flavor that gets praised by FOH techs all the time.
I also have used a Noble for the past 4 years and it too brings a wonderful tube warmth and depth to the DI output.
While its not simple (or cheap) way to go, the best way to make these kinds of decisions is to try the various options out in YOUR playing situation. Then you'll definitively be able to make a decision on the original question ... "is a tube DI worth it".
Any of the boxes being discussed are available new or used, and there is a pretty solid demand for them, so if they don't work out, you will likely be able to recoup most, if not all, of your costs. May take some time, money and effort, but then you'll really know.
good luck.
p.s. I also have generally positive results from FOH sound techs in various venues where I have played. I agree wholeheartedly with the poster who said that you have to work well with these folks (as much as possible). I've (generally) found that if I'm prepared, and act like a human being, I usually get treated reasonably in return.
I have used one or another a tube DI for quite a while and am a firm believer in how they can bring nice depth and warmth to your tone.
I have used a Mesa Walkabout DI for 15+ years. Its DI signal path includes the Master's 12AX7 segment and is wonderful to work with, and definitely delivers a clean (as long as you don't push the gain), warm tube flavor that gets praised by FOH techs all the time.
I also have used a Noble for the past 4 years and it too brings a wonderful tube warmth and depth to the DI output.
While its not simple (or cheap) way to go, the best way to make these kinds of decisions is to try the various options out in YOUR playing situation. Then you'll definitively be able to make a decision on the original question ... "is a tube DI worth it".
Any of the boxes being discussed are available new or used, and there is a pretty solid demand for them, so if they don't work out, you will likely be able to recoup most, if not all, of your costs. May take some time, money and effort, but then you'll really know.
good luck.
p.s. I also have generally positive results from FOH sound techs in various venues where I have played. I agree wholeheartedly with the poster who said that you have to work well with these folks (as much as possible). I've (generally) found that if I'm prepared, and act like a human being, I usually get treated reasonably in return.
The Mozztronics tube Di-2 is an excellent SVT-like tube preamp and DI option, 1/4 the price of all the big names.
The Sushi Box Finally is another great affordable tube DI option, but it's different: no SVT specific tone here, just a nice tube warmth.
Not sure which one would be best in your situation, normally you should send a more neutral sound to the FOH to let him shape it like he wants, rather than a pre-colored tone.
For example I love what the "Ultra low" switch does when I send it to my amp, but I'm sure I would send that affected signal to the FOH since it removes a lot of frequencies.
But as many said previously, it depends on if you trust the sound guy.
The Sushi Box Finally is another great affordable tube DI option, but it's different: no SVT specific tone here, just a nice tube warmth.
Not sure which one would be best in your situation, normally you should send a more neutral sound to the FOH to let him shape it like he wants, rather than a pre-colored tone.
For example I love what the "Ultra low" switch does when I send it to my amp, but I'm sure I would send that affected signal to the FOH since it removes a lot of frequencies.
But as many said previously, it depends on if you trust the sound guy.
Last edited:
D
A good tube DI can sound great but it won't be a cure for a thin and clanky tone. You will probably get much better results by adjusting the tone control(s) on your bass, the eq settings on your rig or maybe change to warmer, mellow sounding strings. If your tone on stage is fine but FOH is thin/clanky it's probably time to have a little chat with the engineer...
Personally I wouldn't bother bringing an expensive tube DI to gigs. In the studio, sure, but the difference in tone is relatively subtle and not something the audience will really notice at a live gig.
I've never been happy with the tone I've gotten from DI outputs on Ampegs though. I'd much rather just use a standard stage DI and blend with the mic'ed amp, provided the DI on stage is of reasonable quality of course and not some Behringer junk or similar.
Personally I wouldn't bother bringing an expensive tube DI to gigs. In the studio, sure, but the difference in tone is relatively subtle and not something the audience will really notice at a live gig.
I've never been happy with the tone I've gotten from DI outputs on Ampegs though. I'd much rather just use a standard stage DI and blend with the mic'ed amp, provided the DI on stage is of reasonable quality of course and not some Behringer junk or similar.
+1 to this. If your tone is defined by a vintage-style tweeterless cab, all full range DIs will sound clanky, especially with dirt. Been that road myself
I recommend Two Notes CAB M; it can be placed between amp and cab or line out from preamp, and has very good IRs. Can also serve as backup to a full amp rig, because they've added a preamp and power amp simulation too.
Taking the DI out of a bass amp into the mains is one of the dumbest things modern music artists do. You completely lose the sound of the cabinet and tube power amp section when you do that, which leaves a very unpleasant, raw tone.
I suggest getting something like an IR loader and running that after the DI before going into the mains. Find some bass cab IR's online that you like and load them in there.
I suggest getting something like an IR loader and running that after the DI before going into the mains. Find some bass cab IR's online that you like and load them in there.
I agree with S.F. If you still like to get a unit that would thicken your signal that you send to the FOH, you might like to try Telefunken, which has a tone of its own in contrast to most other DIs.
D
I've never tested the Telefunken DI but being transformer based it sounds like a good option for thickening the tone, especially if it's voiced specifically to do this. I would still expect it to be a rather subtle thing though, unless the Telefunken is designed for a much more extreme change in tone than other DIs.
Generally I find that the fat/thick tone lots of people seem to associate with tubes is really about the transformers. Of course most top quality tube gear also have top quality transformers but the thickest, fattest tone I get in the studio is from a Neve mic preamp (transformers but no tubes) with the input pushed hard. Cheap, transformerless tube gear on the other hand does NOT have the thick, fat sound we like to think of as "the tube sound".
With all the gear the OP has, there's the possibility to split the signal:
Bass -> distortion -> tuner -> amp in
Then you can split the signal using the tuner output:
Tuner out -> Sansamp -> power amp in
This way it should be possible to use the SVT4's pre-amp's features (eq & comp) to sculpt a fat tube DI-feed just for the FOH. The Sansamp would then take care of your stage sound.
Bass -> distortion -> tuner -> amp in
Then you can split the signal using the tuner output:
Tuner out -> Sansamp -> power amp in
This way it should be possible to use the SVT4's pre-amp's features (eq & comp) to sculpt a fat tube DI-feed just for the FOH. The Sansamp would then take care of your stage sound.
The more money and effort you try to create your live sound with a bunch of techy gadgets, the more upset you may get.
It is STILL my opinion, decades on, that a tube stuffed into a preamp circuit is a gimmick.
If you believe the FOH person might not be the world's finest engineer, then why make it even harder for them by sending them a pedal case full of muck that only sounds good in your bedroom and practice space.
In normal casual gigs, the best sound one can can hope for is being able to hear the notes that the musicians are playing.
With all the crap that goes on in a live sound gig, Can anyone make out the subtle difference that an audiophile DI may have? Heck no
It is STILL my opinion, decades on, that a tube stuffed into a preamp circuit is a gimmick.
If you believe the FOH person might not be the world's finest engineer, then why make it even harder for them by sending them a pedal case full of muck that only sounds good in your bedroom and practice space.
In normal casual gigs, the best sound one can can hope for is being able to hear the notes that the musicians are playing.
With all the crap that goes on in a live sound gig, Can anyone make out the subtle difference that an audiophile DI may have? Heck no
Last edited:
JeezyMcNuggles
Inactive
- Feb 23, 2018
- 14,723
- 20,970
- Disclosures
- I suck, but nobody really notices
Well, then a 25 dollar behringer eq pedal would be the ticket.
The 4 pro has the sliders like the 3pro. Use the ones that are the closet to those.
Check again. There's enough EQ on a 4 Pro to get close enough to 250, 500 and 2.5k.
On the graphic you have 300, 600 and 2K.
From the manual, here's what the mid frequency numbers correspond to: 1=220 Hz, 2=450 Hz, 3=800 Hz, 4=1.6 kHz, and 5=3 kHz.
Or just buy an SM57 and tell the sound man to use the mike.
- Aug 21, 2003
- 11,619
- 18,698
- Disclosures
- A-Designs Mike Lull GK Tsunami Cables GHS Strings RMI Basswitch Nordstrand Pickups Darkglass
I’m a bit of DI freak and here is my $.02 on this and this has helped me.
Most amp direct outs are meh...
I never count on them.
I tend to look at my sound live and what I’m delivering in 2 separate paths.
- My back line that I’m hearing and I’m used to (less important)
-FOH that everyone else is hearing (more important)
I go from my pedal board like most players to backline, however I like to keep a DI (colored a DI something with representation that I like but it tweak able) to FOH that is at the end of the chain.
I also use a ‘pass through’ (which is key) on the DI to send to the backline, that way you are not stacking gain stages. Not all DI/preamp pedals have that and to me that makes no sense not to have one. Just about every plain DI does. The pass through like goes to the backline.
So it’s literally a separate sound (so-to-speak) to the front of the house.
One thing I like about the Tech 21 stuff it does have a pass through.
This way you can send one EQ-ed line to FOH that is separate from backline. Yet if your OD is on the pedal before the DI it’s literally going to both lines.
On Tube DIs
Don’t think playing the REDDI or the Kahn will make an Instant Ampeg tone. I have been a artist with A-Designs for over 10 years and in find they ‘thicken things overall’. (If it was instant Ampeg I most certainly would not be using it
).
REDDI - Not cheap, bulky best to my ears Tube DI ever. (I prefer it recording)
Tech 21 Bass Driver - Is great in a lot of ways, but it does have an EQ, small with an OD and a pass through. It’s not nearly rich sounding like a higher end unit, but it might not need to be.
RNDI - (my personal favorite live DI at this time) Rupert Neve Designs does something to the harmonic structure of the lower mids that fulls up a track, sweetens the highs (Definitely does not boost them) and sounds just killer (if you love your bass tone with no extra EQ)
There is new pedal coming out this summer from Sushi Box that should fix every need this summer...More to come on that later.
Most amp direct outs are meh...
I never count on them.
I tend to look at my sound live and what I’m delivering in 2 separate paths.
- My back line that I’m hearing and I’m used to (less important)
-FOH that everyone else is hearing (more important)
I go from my pedal board like most players to backline, however I like to keep a DI (colored a DI something with representation that I like but it tweak able) to FOH that is at the end of the chain.
I also use a ‘pass through’ (which is key) on the DI to send to the backline, that way you are not stacking gain stages. Not all DI/preamp pedals have that and to me that makes no sense not to have one. Just about every plain DI does. The pass through like goes to the backline.
So it’s literally a separate sound (so-to-speak) to the front of the house.
One thing I like about the Tech 21 stuff it does have a pass through.
This way you can send one EQ-ed line to FOH that is separate from backline. Yet if your OD is on the pedal before the DI it’s literally going to both lines.
On Tube DIs
Don’t think playing the REDDI or the Kahn will make an Instant Ampeg tone. I have been a artist with A-Designs for over 10 years and in find they ‘thicken things overall’. (If it was instant Ampeg I most certainly would not be using it
). REDDI - Not cheap, bulky best to my ears Tube DI ever. (I prefer it recording)
Tech 21 Bass Driver - Is great in a lot of ways, but it does have an EQ, small with an OD and a pass through. It’s not nearly rich sounding like a higher end unit, but it might not need to be.
RNDI - (my personal favorite live DI at this time) Rupert Neve Designs does something to the harmonic structure of the lower mids that fulls up a track, sweetens the highs (Definitely does not boost them) and sounds just killer (if you love your bass tone with no extra EQ)
There is new pedal coming out this summer from Sushi Box that should fix every need this summer...More to come on that later.
I’m a bit of DI freak and here is my $.02 on this and this has helped me.
Most amp direct outs are meh...
I never count on them.
I tend to look at my sound live and what I’m delivering in 2 separate paths.
- My back line that I’m hearing and I’m used to (less important)
-FOH that everyone else is hearing (more important)
I go from my pedal board like most players to backline, however I like to keep a DI (colored a DI something with representation that I like but it tweak able) to FOH that is at the end of the chain.
I also use a ‘pass through’ (which is key) on the DI to send to the backline, that way you are not stacking gain stages. Not all DI/preamp pedals have that and to me that makes no sense not to have one. Just about every plain DI does. The pass through like goes to the backline.
So it’s literally a separate sound (so-to-speak) to the front of the house.
One thing I like about the Tech 21 stuff it does have a pass through.
This way you can send one EQ-ed line to FOH that is separate from backline. Yet if your OD is on the pedal before the DI it’s literally going to both lines.
On Tube DIs
Don’t think playing the REDDI or the Kahn will make an Instant Ampeg tone. I have been a artist with A-Designs for over 10 years and in find they ‘thicken things overall’. (If it was instant Ampeg I most certainly would not be using it
REDDI - Not cheap, bulky best to my ears Tube DI ever. (I prefer it recording)
Tech 21 Bass Driver - Is great in a lot of ways, but it does have an EQ, small with an OD and a pass through. It’s not nearly rich sounding like a higher end unit, but it might not need to be.
RNDI - (my personal favorite live DI at this time) Rupert Neve Designs does something to the harmonic structure of the lower mids that fulls up a track, sweetens the highs (Definitely does not boost them) and sounds just killer (if you love your bass tone with no extra EQ)
There is new pedal coming out this summer from Sushi Box that should fix every need this summer...More to come on that later.
All good points, Tony, and I totally agree in regards to the RNDI. That's where I'm at currently as well. Was a U5 guy for years, but wanted something a bit more compact with the same/similar headroom and clarity. Among the smaller DI boxes available, I found the RNDI to be pretty darned close to the U5 flavor.
drumvsbass
Commercial User
- Aug 20, 2011
- 1,985
- 4,325
- Disclosures
- I work for Long and McQuade Musical Instruments Canada in Sales.
Here is something to consider. To get clarity over top of what your amp is delivering from the bandstand, the FOH might have to thin out your tone to marry the two sounds into something usable. Never judge what the FOH is doing from the bandstand perspective unless YOU are paying the sound tech, and it says your name on the marquis. Otherwise they are just doing the job they are supposed to do. Very few sound techs will actively sabotage a mix unless they really hate you.
- Aug 21, 2003
- 11,619
- 18,698
- Disclosures
- A-Designs Mike Lull GK Tsunami Cables GHS Strings RMI Basswitch Nordstrand Pickups Darkglass
On Engineers
Well - I’m not going to bash them, however I can understand Some might be completely incompetent. I seen both. I’m sure we all have.
They are doing a job, Just like you’re doing a job. These jobs interact with each other.
I’ll look at it like this, if you have someone coming over to build in-ground swimming pool in your backyard Are you going to give that person a coal shovel or a backhoe to actually dig into the ground correctly?
Give them the best possible professional representation of yourself to make both your jobs easier.
Well - I’m not going to bash them, however I can understand Some might be completely incompetent. I seen both. I’m sure we all have.
They are doing a job, Just like you’re doing a job. These jobs interact with each other.
I’ll look at it like this, if you have someone coming over to build in-ground swimming pool in your backyard Are you going to give that person a coal shovel or a backhoe to actually dig into the ground correctly?
Give them the best possible professional representation of yourself to make both your jobs easier.
- Aug 21, 2003
- 11,619
- 18,698
- Disclosures
- A-Designs Mike Lull GK Tsunami Cables GHS Strings RMI Basswitch Nordstrand Pickups Darkglass
Thanks man...This new DI/preamp from Sushibox I’m looking forward towards.
It’s a merger of channel strip meets 80s tights sounding amplification with a loaded IR. I’m plan on making the end of my chain and if I can send 2 lines to the FOH and monitor mix it will be that and a RNDI.
Cave Puppy
"Humph Bo, he's wond!" - John Lennon
A tube DI/preamp will make a difference in your tone. I use a Noble every time I play whether or not there is an amp. Yes it sounds better, thicker, creamier, better texture, fuller, etc., versus a non- tube DI.
In all reality is the difference always going to be noticeable and will the noticeable difference be worth the money? Maybe. Only you will know if adding $500-$1500 to your signal chain is going to fix everything about your current issue.
A really nice tube DI probably will not solve volume inconsistencies in different venues. You mention sometimes it’s fine and sometimes it’s too low in the mix. A tube DI won’t stop the FOH guy from turning down the bass in the mix. And if it sometimes sounds thin or much thinner than you’d like, a tube DI won’t stop the FOH guy from high passing the signal more than you’d like.
What I do and I suppose this is my recommendation to you, it to make sure that the signal that you send to FOH is exactly what you want. Work on that signal and get it as close to perfect to the sound you’re wanting to provide FOH. I’m sure you can get that close to perfect sound with or without a tube DI. Once you’re there, communicate with FOH and somehow tell him or her that you don’t want them to do much of anything to your signal. Tell them please minimal low cut, minimal eq shaping, minimal compression, and let them know where you want the bass to sound in relation to the kick drum. Many times priority is given to the kick and the bass gets drowned.
Having said all that, there are times the rooms or venues aren’t perfectly treated/tuned so those FOH guys have to do magic for the mix to be great. Sometimes that means they’re forced to eq more than one wants them to. It’s just the nature of their work- sometimes.
Lastly, which I maybe should have touched on earlier, if you’re looking to replicate the sound coming out of your amp, then maybe the cheapest and most effective solution is to buy a decent microphone and mic your amp.
In all reality is the difference always going to be noticeable and will the noticeable difference be worth the money? Maybe. Only you will know if adding $500-$1500 to your signal chain is going to fix everything about your current issue.
A really nice tube DI probably will not solve volume inconsistencies in different venues. You mention sometimes it’s fine and sometimes it’s too low in the mix. A tube DI won’t stop the FOH guy from turning down the bass in the mix. And if it sometimes sounds thin or much thinner than you’d like, a tube DI won’t stop the FOH guy from high passing the signal more than you’d like.
What I do and I suppose this is my recommendation to you, it to make sure that the signal that you send to FOH is exactly what you want. Work on that signal and get it as close to perfect to the sound you’re wanting to provide FOH. I’m sure you can get that close to perfect sound with or without a tube DI. Once you’re there, communicate with FOH and somehow tell him or her that you don’t want them to do much of anything to your signal. Tell them please minimal low cut, minimal eq shaping, minimal compression, and let them know where you want the bass to sound in relation to the kick drum. Many times priority is given to the kick and the bass gets drowned.
Having said all that, there are times the rooms or venues aren’t perfectly treated/tuned so those FOH guys have to do magic for the mix to be great. Sometimes that means they’re forced to eq more than one wants them to. It’s just the nature of their work- sometimes.
Lastly, which I maybe should have touched on earlier, if you’re looking to replicate the sound coming out of your amp, then maybe the cheapest and most effective solution is to buy a decent microphone and mic your amp.
