Double Bass Is anybody using just a mic?

[Silversorcerer]

Ohhhhh, I was wondering when you were going to chime in. I read over your experience with that on Ken's forum. It sounds ideal, but there is no way I could possibly drop that amount of money on a mic (it's like 1500 right? or am I wrong, please say I'm wrong ). I'm in college right now and that type of money just doesn't exist. What did you think of the other mics you were considering?

Well, I am embarrassed to say I didn't try anything else. I wanted a miniature condenser that could run on phatom power and not need a pre-amp box in the signal path. I think the DPA is about the only one with the pre-amp built into the capsule housing. With phantom power there is no need for batteries and boxes with the DPA 4021. I'm pretty sure that's why it is big bucks. I look at it like this;- my $3K bass mic'd right sounds better than a $10K bass with a piezo, so when it comes to amplification a good mic is a big gain in sound quality.

I do know someone with an AMT, but I haven't been able to get both mics in the same room to compare. There are many AMT users that give it good reports. There are only a few posts about the DPA mics, but those give it good reviews.

 

[Vunz]

Vunz ... I've always been intrigued by your setup. And by some of the descriptions I've heard of life in Amsterdam too! In your video, I have no trouble hearing the bass. Nice sound too.

What would you say are the top 5 or 6 things you need to know to get the most volume out of your mic before it squeals and feeds back? Let's assume for the sake of this discussion that you are running the mic only through your amp and not a PA.

Anyone really, if you think this is worth pursuing ... please chime in.

Thanks, Bolo! Yes, Amsterdam is a crazy city, but I just love living there (and I'd better, since we just bought a house here – well, apartment, houses in Amsterdam are for the Dutch rich and famous)!

Thanks for your comments regarding my sound. About my "top 5": first of all, and this might be obvious, but I will mention it anyway, you have to be able to produce a healthy sound from your instrument acoustically. Not just a loud sound, but one that is really defined. Definition is just as important as volume. Next, use a hypercardioid mic (although the DPA mic Silversorcerer uses is a cardioid and that seems to work quite well). The tighter the pattern, the less risk of (exaggerated) bleed and feedback. The downside is, that it is harder to capture the sound of the entire bass. Therefore, and this is point 3, you need to experiment at home. I have recorded my bass, using the Neumann mic and SPL mic preamp, with the mic in different positions, until I found the mic position that gave me the sound that I wanted (The Exploraudio mic clamp really helps here). This sound then has to be amplified by using a rig that is as neutral as possible. Any coloration of your sound is an additional feedback risk. For coloration means a spike in the sound spectrum, this spike is amplified because it is picked up by the mic, amplified again, et voilà: feedback. Furthermore, make sure the mic does not "see" the cab. That is why I always put my cab to my left, so that the back of my bass is between the cab and the mic. Also, in this way the mic doesn't point to other instruments directly, although the top of the bass always acts as an acoustic reflector, and you always pick up ambient noise and other instruments. Lastly, if you play over a pa, make sure the sound tech does not add any lows to your sound! This is desastrous. I always take both my mic and preamp to gigs where there is a pa (I don't take my power amp and cab with me on such gigs and just use the monitor as my, well, monitor). In this way, I am able to give the sound tech a +4dBu line signal which, in principle, doesn't need additional processing.

Well, there you go, my top tips for using a mic with your bass. Hopefully it is of some use to you.

Cheers,
Vincent

 

[Nils Ö]

The tighter the pattern, the less risk of (exaggerated) bleed and feedback.

That is not always true. Microphones with super or hyper cardioid patterns actually pick up more from the rear than normal cardioids. Pointing the back of a supercardioid towards a floor monitor is not always a good idea. And, as Vunz says, reflections from the bass itself changes the way the microphones behave when they are close to the top. I am beginning to suspect that omnidirectional microphones are actually the best choice for very close-miking of double bass. For instance they do not exhibit problems with unwanted bass boost due to the proximity effect, etc.

 

[Vunz]

That is not always true. Microphones with super or hyper cardioid patterns actually pick up more from the rear than normal cardioids. Pointing the back of a supercardioid towards a floor monitor is not always a good idea. And, as Vunz says, reflections from the bass itself changes the way the microphones behave when they are close to the top. I am beginning to suspect that omnidirectional microphones are actually the best choice for very close-miking of double bass. For instance they do not exhibit problems with unwanted bass boost due to the proximity effect, etc.

Good point, which I should have mentioned, but the sensitivity of the rear of a hypercardioid can be controlled relatively easy, especially when the mic is pointing upward (as does mine). But, as you mentioned, make sure that the rear of the mic does not point to a floor monitor. And it is also true that omnis do not suffer from proximity effects etc. Omnis are about the most accurate mic types you can use. However, to use an omni in an amplified live situation... I know DPA is sort of promoting using omnis live, but I think this is only halfway possible in very controlled conditions, so not during your average pub gig.

Cheers,
Vincent

 

[larry]

I am beginning to suspect that omnidirectional microphones are actually the best choice for very close-miking of double bass. For instance they do not exhibit problems with unwanted bass boost due to the proximity effect, etc.

I often use an omni for recording for the same reasons. They are accurate, and it's nice not to have the proximity effect. Yes, there is bleed but it's natural-sounding and usable.

That said, I've tried to use them for live sound and have never been successful. If someone else has, I'd love to hear some details.

 

[Nils Ö]

That said, I've tried to use them for live sound and have never been successful. If someone else has, I'd love to hear some details.

Some Swedish bassists use a tiny omnidirectional microphone (made by an enthusiast - not a commercial product, I think). It is usually mounted on one of the bridge feet, very close to the top of the bass. It has enough separation to be used with an amplifier on stage (at least, that is what they do).

Sometimes engineers set up omnidirectional microphones when they want only a slight support of the double bass in the PA-system, but that has been in rooms or halls with good acoustics and settings where the balance between instruments were already rather good.

Obviously an omnidirectional placed two feet in front of the bass will not work if there is another, much louder instrument (or, shall we say, kit of instruments...) very close to it.

 

[larry]

Some Swedish bassists use a tiny omnidirectional microphone (made by an enthusiast - not a commercial product, I think). It is usually mounted on one of the bridge feet, very close to the top of the bass. It has enough separation to be used with an amplifier on stage (at least, that is what they do).

There is a miniature DPA omni. Could it be something like this?:
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/4060BM/

Still skeptical, though. I own four different omni mics and none of them can provide enough gain before feedback for live use.

 

[bolo]

I have seen (and heard) a DPA used live only once. But it sounded quite good all right. It was one of their miniature cardioids though, a 4021 I think. The player was John Brown. He heads up the Jazz Dept. at Duke, and is also on the faculty at UNC.

Again, I think context is important. The setting was a big outdoor stage, with a big PA, monitors. Lots of separation on stage. Not a case of running the mic thru an amp in a noisy crowded bar, although perhaps the DPA would work in that context too. Dunno. Although if you can afford one of these, you probably aren't confined to workin' the local bar scene.

 

[Don Higdon]

A gig has to be pretty darn loud for a mic to not work, if you know what your doing with it. On the rare gig the mic doesn't work I throw a p/u in the wing of my bridge. The tone sucks, but at that volume I don't care anymore anyway.

+1 Neither do I.

Well, I have to say that I think I almost set myself up this way to weed out the bad music! If we can't get a balanced sound with our mics then I wonder about the musicians, the venue and even the audience. Pretty snobby sounding huh?

No. You're right on.
If there's no house PA, I use an AMT through an AI Contra, and it sounds vastly superior to a pickup.
I subbed in a blues band in a club once where the other amps were bigger than my refrigerator. Never again. Near as I could tell, they were cancelling each other out, anyway. Guys in the audience dressing up to look like Stevie Ray Vaughan. I'm with Jason.

 

[anonymous02282011]

You guys gave me a crazy idea . . . and it seems to work.

With all this gear I've recently acquired, I've been trying to mix and match to find the best amped tones for upright (and electric; I'll stick to my upright observation here).

So, I was reading this thread and trying to figure out a way to get my mic signal louder. The crazy idea was to run the 1/4" out from the AMT "super" pre-amp into an another pre-amp/DI box. OK, nothing exploded yet. Then I took the 1/4" out of the pre/DI box and plugged it into the AI clarus, which is pushing a 15"EV speaker. It sounds GREAT, but really great and so natural! I think it is loud enough that I won't have to use the pick up. I'm going to lug the heavy 15 to a couple gigs and see if this added pre-amp in the signal chain boosts the volume enough for gig-use. The pre/DI I added in the signal chain is that eclair evil twin (all tube, handmade by my neighbor, mucho denerio). I'll report back after some gigging. Thanks guys.

 

[Zachmozach]

I've been using the K&K trinity upgrade blended with a fishman full circle. It sounds great especially since I don't need a whole lot of amplification anyway, but it sounds great. Maybe someday I'll go to mic only, but a lot of times I don't even bother since I try to rely on my bass for most of the sound and the amp is just reinforcement. However I've used it twice when I just plain need to be louder and I think it sounds pretty good. I just know anytime I plug in I'm not going to like the sound as much as being in a room with just my bass, so I think I'm going to lay off going crazy with the equipment and just concentrating on getting my sound out of the bass and playing well. The rest will take care of itself in time.

 

[Nils Ö]

There is a miniature DPA omni. Could it be something like this?:
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/4060BM/

Similar, but not the same. But I think most miniature omnidirectionals behave almost the same.

Still skeptical, though. I own four different omni mics and none of them can provide enough gain before feedback for live use.

No doubt, directional microphones are often the best or only possible soulution.

 

[Silversorcerer]

The DPA 4060-BM mic is an omni that DPA recommends for DB, but I doubt that it would be as useful live as a cardioid like the 4021. The 4060 is less than half the price of the 4021, so if you are just looking for something to get you up a little in a big house and bleed is not a problem it might work. I could see it being useful in a classical recital or similar situation.

One mic that I had hopes of obtaining but could find no USA seller was the Netherlands made SD Systems mic for DB. Its' numbers and graphs looked really flat for the whole DB range down to 20 Hz. Those have gotten great reviews but now it is difficult to get in the USA. The DPA looked like the same kind of thing except with the pre-amp built in.

I have to agree with Jason about "weeding out" musicians who demonstrate poor group dynamics. Sometime snobbery is a good thing. I just call it keeping my focus. I think most of my "auditions" with other musicians now are going to be sans amp. If they can cut that situation then there might be a future. So far it's a small crowd, but I'm much happier with that crowd.

My favorite reply when I'm using mic only when someone asks me if I can turn the bass up is, "No, I cant." Even when I'm on EBG with headroom to burn the answer is still, "No, I can't." Sometimes I'll say, "Have you considered that everything else might be too loud?"

 

[flatback]

One mic that I had hopes of obtaining but could find no USA seller was the Netherlands made CD Systems mic for DB. Its' numbers and graphs looked really flat for the whole DB range down to 20 Hz. Those have gotten great reviews but now it is difficult to get in the USA. The DPA looked like the same kind of thing except with the pre-amp built in.


You got any more info or a website for that mic? Name? Company? Thanks

 

[Vunz]

One mic that I had hopes of obtaining but could find no USA seller was the Netherlands made CD Systems mic for DB. Its' numbers and graphs looked really flat for the whole DB range down to 20 Hz. Those have gotten great reviews but now it is difficult to get in the USA. The DPA looked like the same kind of thing except with the pre-amp built in.


You got any more info or a website for that mic? Name? Company? Thanks

I think he means SD Systems Link Removed
I used it for a while, and it was very good, but not as good as my Neumann/SPL combi.

Cheers,
Vincent

 

[Marc Piane]

I have to agree with Jason about "weeding out" musicians who demonstrate poor group dynamics. Sometime snobbery is a good thing. I just call it keeping my focus. I think most of my "auditions" with other musicians now are going to be sans amp. If they can cut that situation then there might be a future. So far it's a small crowd, but I'm much happier with that crowd.

My favorite reply when I'm using mic only when someone asks me if I can turn the bass up is, "No, I cant." Even when I'm on EBG with headroom to burn the answer is still, "No, I can't." Sometimes I'll say, "Have you considered that everything else might be too loud?"

I am with you. Unfortunately, at least in my experience, that attitude might not get you called back. Here in Chicago there are a growing number of good DB players. People call you because of your playing but also because of the experience working with you on a personal level. I have heard complaints about bass players I am subbing for that won't turn up and get snippy about it. Weeding out is great and for seasoned pros might be the way to go but remember our OP is an 18 y.o. college student.

In my experience if you are looking to make a career as a bass player you have to jump through a bunch of hoops including playing "All of Me" (I hate that tune), being crammed in small spaces, wearing uncomfortable clothes, and turning up louder than you'd like. Once you develop the a circle of guys though you can start to be more idealistic.

None of this really pertains directly to using a mic only and maybe I'm off base with what the OP wants out of his bass playing career.

 

[ctxbass]

I think he means SD Systems Link Removed
I used it for a while, and it was very good, but not as good as my Neumann/SPL combi.

Cheers,
Vincent

I bet that "Neumann/SPL combi" sounds wonderful. I think it's at least 6 times the cost of the SD mic though.

 

[Mark Perna]

I am with you. Unfortunately, at least in my experience, that attitude might not get you called back. Here in Chicago there are a growing number of good DB players. People call you because of your playing but also because of the experience working with you on a personal level. I have heard complaints about bass players I am subbing for that won't turn up and get snippy about it. Weeding out is great and for seasoned pros might be the way to go but remember our OP is an 18 y.o. college student.

In my experience if you are looking to make a career as a bass player you have to jump through a bunch of hoops including playing "All of Me" (I hate that tune), being crammed in small spaces, wearing uncomfortable clothes, and turning up louder than you'd like. Once you develop the a circle of guys though you can start to be more idealistic.

None of this really pertains directly to using a mic only and maybe I'm off base with what the OP wants out of his bass playing career.

Gotta go with Fingers on this one. I want to know where the place is where there are so many great gigs and so few other bass players that you can pick and choose which ones to take based on how loud the other players are. Don't get me wrong, I love playing where the loudest instrument isn't any louder than I am unamplified but I just don't find myself in that situation all that often. On the other hand, this thread has inspired me to experiment more with mics.

mark

 

[Silversorcerer]

I think he means SD Systems Link Removed
I used it for a while, and it was very good, but not as good as my Neumann/SPL combi.

Cheers,
Vincent

That is correct. I fixed the post. There are some models with interchangeable capsules for cardioid, hyper-cardioid, etc.

 

[Silversorcerer]

Gotta go with Fingers on this one. I want to know where the place is where there are so many great gigs and so few other bass players that you can pick and choose which ones to take based on how loud the other players are. Don't get me wrong, I love playing where the loudest instrument isn't any louder than I am unamplified but I just don't find myself in that situation all that often. On the other hand, this thread has inspired me to experiment more with mics.

mark

Well, what I find is that a group of musicians that can balance dynamics without amps will do better with amps also. And the most common complaint from the management of places I play about bands is that they are often too loud. Given that most of the gigs I play now "belong to me";- meaning I lined up the gig;- I can choose who I want to play along side of me at those gigs. I have taken the upper hand primarily because I am more interested in maintaining the gig than delivering an overly loud ego driven performance. I stick to a volume level that will please the client, and if I have a drummer or someone else who can't cut it, it is them that goes, not me.

After all, where is it in the world that there are so few drummers, guitarists and horn players that one has to play with musicians with no dynamic sensibility? All you have to do is be assertive and the quality and maturity of the players you play with will go up. IMO, a player who doesn't listen to other players in the ensemble is a poor excuse for a player. If they want to be that loud and they are the band leader and secured the gig, fine. I'll put in earplugs, bring an EBG and an 800 Watt amp with the full knowledge that we will probably only play that gig until the management finds a band that performs at a more reasonable volume.