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is band culture changing?

Not to get all gloom & doomy, but around here McSleazy isn't far off. We find it almost impossible to get into new venues. We're fortunate to be gigging twice a month and fall is looking a bit grim at the moment.

Here in Vancouver and the surrounding area, there`s maybe 20 venues left that have bands. Yet there`s literally thousands of bands fighting over those venues. Most of the bands SUCK and have literally ruined it for anyone the club owner`s don`t know. Venues have become loyal to the bands they know and trust. Now what you have is about 10 bands getting all the work. Most of these bands consist of guys that have a name and have played with big name acts, or are at least established. So, if you`re an unknown, the club owners will refuse to book you unless they see you, but won`t come out and see you. You need to prove you can fill their bar, but they refuse to take the chance on you.

Another thing is that lot of great venues have been mismanaged into the ground and bands were the first thing to cut back on. We simply cannot compete with a DJ in a lot of cases. We lost a regular gig at a local venue that quit having live music so I had a chat with the manager. He said that with a DJ, people will line up out the door and the bar can make $15,000 a night. Sure, people get drunk and there`s hassles, but a band will typically bring in only about $5000 a night. Even if the bar has to pay out $1,000 for a smashed urinal, or whatever other damage, the bottom line is the DJ wins.

Getting gigs is a constant battle. A lot of it is luck and timing. If it wasn`t for the fact we manage to get just enough paying gigs to scratch our collective itch, I`d give up my (somewhat) unknown band and try to find something more established. Fortunately, we are slowly gaining a reputation and hopefully soon we`ll work our way into the ranks of the elite. It`s only been 2 years.

oh thanks for reminding me of the other part.
pay to play gigs. i get they want to fill the venue but the only way to actually get a return is to sell 100+ tickets? so after paying £200 to play there you then have to sell 100+ tickets at £5 each just to break even because they're cut is so big. plus if you dont sell enough the venue will say "ok we expect you to make up the money"
 
I personally live for the performance. Been in the writing/recording process for the last 4.5 months.. We have turned down several gigs which about kills me. Back on the stage this Saturday. We all 4 have day jobs, some better than others so we don't depand on gig money. The last year or so all gig money has gone into equipment upgrades, promotion and the cd project. Band culture is what its always been, all over the spectrum. The other thing that hasn't changed is that it will take way more work/time/money than you thought it would and there's no substitute for paying your dues. Been discussed ad nauseum but a truism that never changes.
 
I've been told by some old gents I call mentors that the same thing happened in the 70's-80's and we came out just fine. The people that can appreciate/enjoy live music will keep on enjoying it and the people who are satisfied with an ipod hooked up to a PA will keep preferring that. If/when the economy in the US picks up, I'm sure live music will pick up as well.

But the economy picked up just fine during a large part of the 90's, and the gigging situation still went south. IMHO the economy has only a partial role, and is WAY subserviant to things like agressive prosecution of DUI, health risk awareness of alchohol/smoking/STD etc. Those things are not changing.
 
s_mcsleazy said:
oh thanks for reminding me of the other part.
pay to play gigs. i get they want to fill the venue but the only way to actually get a return is to sell 100+ tickets? so after paying £200 to play there you then have to sell 100+ tickets at £5 each just to break even because they're cut is so big. plus if you dont sell enough the venue will say "ok we expect you to make up the money"

This is more about cover bands that have flat fee.
 
IMO, here are the reasons bar gigs are drying up:

1) Smoking bans have been enacted in many states, including my home state and at least one of the states adjacent. As a non-smoker this has made my gigging environments FAR more tolerable, but in terms of sheer business at bars it has been a negative.

2) The economy sucks. Gas and grocery prices are way too high (relative to the increase or lack thereof in wages), and have been for quite some time. Result is, discretionary income is down, therefore less money for people to go out to bars with.

3) Drunk driving enforcement has gone way up, in the form of sobriety checkpoints, cops laying in wait during bar rush to ambush drivers on the way home, etc. Again, incentive for people to stay home or if they do come out to a bar, buy less alcohol and leave sooner. The risks are just way too high and people aren't gonna go to a bar and drink water all night no matter how good the band may be.

4) The overall quality of bands playing in bars has gone down. I have seen bands in regular weekend rotations at bars who wouldn't have even gotten booked for a weeknight 10 years ago. Now in a sense the bar owners have set themselves up for this by refusing to scale their pay upwards over time. If you're gonna pay bands the same amount you paid them 10 years ago (even though the overhead for those bands has increased two or threefold), by definition you're gonna get lower quality bands.

The majority of my cover band's business these days is street dances and private parties (weddings, corporate parties). We do at most, one bar gig every 6-8 weeks and those are distributed across a very small group of bars that are a reasonable distance away, treat us well (comps, etc.), and are willing to pay enough to make it worth our while. It's just not that big of a piece of the pie for us anymore.
 
1) Smoking bans have been enacted in many states, including my home state and at least one of the states adjacent. As a non-smoker this has made my gigging environments FAR more tolerable, but in terms of sheer business at bars it has been a negative.

Is this really true? My anecdotal observation is that smokers still go to bars, but smoke outside, while non-smokers who would never have gone to those bars before will now do so.
 
My band usually does 2 to 3 gigs a month, and we all have day jobs but the bajo sexto man
(we do norteño music), i get half the house income from this, i would love to dicth the day job, but the band would need to do 4 or 6 gigs a month to do that, and the singer is kinda lazy, sorry for the english, i´m not fluent yet!
Man, if I could ditch my day job by upping to 4 - 6 gigs a month I *would so do that!*

Anyway it's cool that your gigs pay so well.
 
I guess that's the main cultural difference...

Most of the old starving musicians did not have a "real" day job. Many of the people on here do.

I'm pretty sure the "classic" band culture still exists, its just that those folks don't have enough money to have a laptop and internet connection, or are too busy finding gigs and doing small tours in small clubs to almost no pay... I think it takes far more effort and luck nowadays to make it big and last as long as some of today's rock stars have lasted...
 
Gloom and doom anybody? sheeeesh...this guy made me wanna kill myself for a second there LOL
I'm gigging at least 3 times a month with minimal issues. Bars are not paying what they used to but it's enough to make it worthwhile. The fact is that gigs are what you make of them.

+1, I was about to sell all my gear and jump off the bridge for a minute there. Hell, if we only gigged 2 times a year I would find a new band, the money I make playing 2-3 times a month pays my gas and electric bills and some fast food and free drinks. I will never turn down the money, and everyone in my band has full time , jobs and kids, but we make the time because we love it! The $ is just a plus and right now pays the payments on my new SVT Classic!
 
IMO, here are the reasons bar gigs are drying up:

1) Smoking bans have been enacted in many states, including my home state and at least one of the states adjacent. As a non-smoker this has made my gigging environments FAR more tolerable, but in terms of sheer business at bars it has been a negative.

2) The economy sucks. Gas and grocery prices are way too high (relative to the increase or lack thereof in wages), and have been for quite some time. Result is, discretionary income is down, therefore less money for people to go out to bars with.

3) Drunk driving enforcement has gone way up, in the form of sobriety checkpoints, cops laying in wait during bar rush to ambush drivers on the way home, etc. Again, incentive for people to stay home or if they do come out to a bar, buy less alcohol and leave sooner. The risks are just way too high and people aren't gonna go to a bar and drink water all night no matter how good the band may be.

4) The overall quality of bands playing in bars has gone down. I have seen bands in regular weekend rotations at bars who wouldn't have even gotten booked for a weeknight 10 years ago. Now in a sense the bar owners have set themselves up for this by refusing to scale their pay upwards over time. If you're gonna pay bands the same amount you paid them 10 years ago (even though the overhead for those bands has increased two or threefold), by definition you're gonna get lower quality bands.

The majority of my cover band's business these days is street dances and private parties (weddings, corporate parties). We do at most, one bar gig every 6-8 weeks and those are distributed across a very small group of bars that are a reasonable distance away, treat us well (comps, etc.), and are willing to pay enough to make it worth our while. It's just not that big of a piece of the pie for us anymore.

This is all valid, though not really to blue's original point. But I guess with a lot of bands, if there isn't steady, decent-paying work, and you wind up just playing for fun, musicians do start saying "I can play for fun at home." Which, even as a noobie, I can see - I can play an open mic for free, not have to clear the stage after, and be home earlier than 2 am.

On #4 especially, I haven't really been watching the scene for a long time, but I've heard plenty of anecdotal evidence from others to validate it for my area. Some of the more experienced guys will talk about venues that used to skimp and pay badly, so they wound up only being able to book crappy bands that would play for peanuts, and those crappy bands in turn sucked so bad they drove customers away.... and the venues then went out of business. Likewise, the experience of suffering through a sucky band once too often, from the customer's perspective, can mean that "LIVE MUSIC TONIGHT!" might translate to "STAY AWAY!"

The catch-22 is that the only way I know of to BECOME a tight, professional band with a great stage presence is to go ahead and gig all you can even if you're not very good yet. I've discovered that I can play songs flawlessly in practice, but get me in a gig and there are so many distractions and things to get nervous about that I'm back to sucking. Now that I've played a few gigs I'm getting over that, but the sucky bands have to play some time, somewhere, if they're ever going to turn into good bands...

EDIT: there's another thread running about a situation at a benefit show, with a lot of people saying benefits aren't worth it. This seems like a place to venture that I disagree; for a newly-starting band, those kinds of things can mean either valuable stage experience, or a chance to show potential fans that you DON'T suck. For instance, there's a Beatles tribute band in our area that played a benefit for the local library (the library probably paid them, it wasn't so much a fundraiser as a celebration of a successful fundraising campaign). We probably wouldn't have paid to see them on the name alone. But the benefit was free, and they were good - so at a later event, when we heard they were playing, we made a point to go see them again.
 
On #4 especially, I haven't really been watching the scene for a long time, but I've heard plenty of anecdotal evidence from others to validate it for my area. Some of the more experienced guys will talk about venues that used to skimp and pay badly, so they wound up only being able to book crappy bands that would play for peanuts, and those crappy bands in turn sucked so bad they drove customers away.... and the venues then went out of business. Likewise, the experience of suffering through a sucky band once too often, from the customer's perspective, can mean that "LIVE MUSIC TONIGHT!" might translate to "STAY AWAY!"

You summarized the situation a lot better than I could have. That is exactly what has happened in my market. For instance, there are two or three bands who were really big in this area 20-25 years ago. Every 2 or 3 years their members get back together from all over the country, they rehearse a couple of nights and do a week or two of "reunion" shows around the area. Without exception, those bands with only a couple of "refresher" rehearsals blow the doors off of virtually any band around here that's playing practically every weekend (including mine :hmm: ). It's just ridiculous, and demonstrates how much higher the bar used to be for local bands then it is now.

As for the "culture" of my band regarding gigs... we all pretty much want to gig as much as possible provided it's worth our time financially. We have a strict policy of not taking any gig that doesn't net us at least $150 a man and so while the number of gigs we've played has decreased over the last two years (especially bar gigs), financially we're still at about the same place even though overhead (gas, food, vehicle maintenance, hotels etc.) is higher than it's ever been. Our BL does this for a living while the rest of us have day jobs, so he has the most skin in the game of anyone and absolutely runs the band as a for-profit business. We might be "weekend warriors" but it is definitely more than a hobby as far as we're concerned. We're fortunate enough that we've been able to hold a pretty hard line on our price and still get about as many gigs as any of us want.
 
The originals blues band I played with for a year+ had one paying gig in a year. Rehearsals once a week for a year cost me $50 each 'cause I had to leave a paying job early for reh. The one gig we did paid me $50. You do the math... Now I'm in a classic rock covers band and we get a few more gigs but still not enough for our taste, would like to do at least 1-2 a month.
 
From the responses and replys I have read from my threads, it seem like gigging is not much of a priority with many bands.

In response to your thread title, yes, the culture has changed---not so much among musicians as the culture around the live music scene. For the past 30+ years, the popularity of live music has been declining.

For a long time, live music was the only option in many cases, and then for a while, coinciding with the birth and rise of rock music, live music was popular because going to see bands was a cool thing to do. I think that phenomenon peaked in the 70s, but it has been declining from the 80s to now. This is a big-picture broad and slow process that neither musicians nor club owners can do anything about, so I think a lot of people either don't see it or ignore it to focus on the things they CAN affect. But I think that's what's really behind the steady worsening of the outlook for bands.

As the number of people interested in coming to see bands dwindles, you get as effects a lot of what people complain about. There are fewer gigs available, even for good bands. Back in the day, a traveling band could book a week at a club. Now they're lucky to get one night, which raises the cost of traveling. And, fewer people coming out means less money, so pay stagnates. It is often noted in discussions of the subject that bands today are making about the same as bands 35 years ago, in dollars that don't buy nearly as much. I think that started because people quit coming out.

And that was when there were a bunch of good bands touring around to keep the calendar full. Yes, many bands playing out in any given city are pretty bad, but, don't you think club owners would book good bands that could draw and hold an audience if those bands were around? They are few and far between. Even in a huge city like Chicago, if I wanted to start a rock club and make sure we always had really good music, it would be a challenge to keep the calendar full.

After a while, when the scene has shrunk to a certain point, it''s not worth the time and trouble to have a top-shelf serious band---musicians can't make an acceptable living at it. So that dries up even more the number of good bands available, because now you're restricted to a smaller geographic area to draw from, since people have day jobs. Nowadays, I'd bet that the substantial majority of players in the good bands, playing the good-paying gigs at the top venues, still have day jobs.

And that also means that successful bands now have to appeal to a fairly low denominator. When there's a huge audience for live music, even a band with a smaller niche appeal can still find enough people to play decent gigs fairly regularly. But when that audience shrinks, the small niche gets even smaller, and so if your band doesn't play one of the few still-working formulas, you can end up playing just a couple times a year.

It should go without saying that lots of bands and club owners make stupid decisions that impede their own effectiveness, but, even if everyone was doing everything the best way they could, the supply of people wanting to play would still exceed the opportunities do to so playing quality gigs for decent pay. The audience for live music has been shrinking for two generations and I think the current ****** bands/****** clubs vicious circle is a result of that, not the cause.
 
Chuck King said:
In response to your thread title, yes, the culture has changed---not so much among musicians as the culture around the live music scene. For the past 30+ years, the popularity of live music has been declining.

For a long time, live music was the only option in many cases, and then for a while, coinciding with the birth and rise of rock music, live music was popular because going to see bands was a cool thing to do

Yes it used to be a cool thing to do and a lot of people were into the "band scene ".

Now, when I talk to people about my band and my role with the band. Sadly it's as if I'm speaking in a foreign language.
 
The other thing is that as "popular" music moves more and more toward 100% studio fabrications, it becomes more and more difficult to reproduce that music in a live setting. Which #1 makes it tougher on "traditional" bands and #2 makes the live listening experience less compelling for consumers.

Also, music consumers are more "artist agnostic" than they have ever been. By which I mean it is totally about the song and not about the individual or band creating the song, therefore loyalty to artists/bands is nowhere near where it was when my generation (I'm 46) was coming up. People don't follow bands, they follow their favorite "channel" on Pandora or whatever. All of which means it's harder than ever to build a following as an artist or a band cause so many people just don't give a damn who's behind the music they like.
 
jaywa said:
The other thing is that as "popular" music moves more and more toward 100% studio fabrications, it becomes more and more difficult to reproduce that music in a live setting. Which #1 makes it tougher on "traditional" bands and #2 makes the live listening experience less compelling for consumers.

Also, music consumers are more "artist agnostic" than they have ever been. By which I mean it is totally about the song and not about the individual or band creating the song, therefore loyalty to artists/bands is nowhere near where it was when my generation (I'm 46) was coming up. People don't follow bands, they follow their favorite "channel" on Pandora or whatever. All of which means it's harder than ever to build a following as an artist or a band cause so many people just don't give a damn who's behind the music they like.

Great point, back in my day ( the stone age) you knew the names of of all the members of your favorite band.

Hell, you also knew their favorite color and breakfast cereal.