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Is it abuse?

So....are you saying you do "believe in" relative morality, and that Western philosophical thinking is relatively the best one?

I consider myself rather agnostic on that...similar to how I consider myself agnostic on the question on whether to be a humanist or an anti-humanist: Both humanism and anti-humanism are statements about the belief in an essential "human nature," which to me is a falsifiable question in the abstract, though not necessarily falsifiable in any realistic sense (i.e., basically have to raise people in Skinner boxes, which ironically has ethical issues itself).

I know that killing is wrong and stealing is wrong, etc. But I've been socialized to understand that. If I weren't socialized, would I still hold those beliefs? I don't know. I do have a personal code, which for the most part, is reflective of Western ethical views. I don't necessarily subscribe to Western philosophy being the best, but it's generally what has informed our moral codes. At the end of the day, I'm a pragmatist, so I think "Don't harm others" is a good stance to have (but that also isn't as simple as we'd like it to be :D). With that said, ethics aren't black and white, and we do renegotiate ethical concepts all of the time. Most people would agree that killing another person is wrong. However, killing an enemy combatant during a time of war is okay, which makes things dicey.

Now the question of whether laws and morality are the same...that's going to be some serious navel gazing there. :D
 
Then we can take phenomenology to its next stage and discuss existentialism. Hey, I hipped Matticus to buy a copy of No Exit a while back. :D

Not sure we'd ever get past Husserl. Just getting acclimated to the terminology would take me a while I assume. Friggin' jargon. And I'd have to learn a bit of german, oh the joy!

:ninja:

I guess on the up-side I'd have the advantage of reading Merleau-Ponty and others in French.

edit: Reading some Sartre in English sounds odd. The title itself being a bad translation irks me.
 
Umm, no. Godwin's Law aside, what is so hard understanding what I'm saying? :rollno:

Argumentum ad hominem. Well played.


First, on the topic of social construction: I am not making a normative value judgment. Social construction is not an ethical position. It is an ontological paradigm that informs certain schools of social science. You are all trying to talk ethics. I'm talking sociology and anthropology. An anthropologist who writes an ethnography on a group of people and how they negotiate certain folkways, ethics, and norms within a group is not necessarily making a value judgment on those things; he or she is just reporting how that group negotiates those folkways, ethics, and norms. If you remember correctly, the original question I responded to asked how different ideas of right and wrong change over time. I gave a quick and dirty guide to constructionism; nothing more.

Wrong. The discussion was over whether there was such a thing as inherent morality. You denied that there was. You had said,

What is inherent morality? Morality is given validity through our system of philosophy. I reject the idea of an inherent morality because it assumes some sort of intangible essence.


Second, with regard to my second point. I'm not saying morality comes from consensus.

You're not? You said, "Morality is given validity through our system of philosophy." Who is our? Do you mean us collectively, or each one of us individually? If the first, then yes, you are saying that morality comes from consensus. If the second, then no, that's not what you were saying, and I "understandably misunderstood." But if you are saying that morality is wholly individualistic...the Holocaust did not necessarily violate the morals of the Nazis, and thus may have been a moral act for them.


I'm saying that morality is not automatically self-evident or based upon any inarticulable essence, but must be understood through a system of philosophy that is intellectually defensible.

Hitler used an intellectual defense for the Final Solution. Through Darwinian evolution and pragmatism, he argued that the annihilation of the Jews was for the good of Germany and, ultimately, of Europe and all the world. That is not to say that his defense isn't refutable, because it most definitely is. But that refutation depends on an understanding of a higher morality than any one individual's system of philosophy.

The Nuremberg Trials never would have convicted a single Nazi if they had not proceeded with the understanding that there was a higher, inherent, morality.


Anymore straw men I have to deal with in this thread?

Calling it so does not make it so. You are trying to address multiple subjects; I get that. But where I take issue with you is on your claim that there is no such thing as inherent morality. I say that there is, and the Nuremberg Trials agree with me and disagree with you.
 
theological blabla

1. A social construct is not a consensus. However, a consensus is a social construct.

2. There doesn't have to be a "higher, inherent, morality" for any trial to work. Just a larger framework than nazism by which their action can be judged. Ie: The rest of the world in this case.

By the way, I'm pretty sure many nazis believed they were doing the right/moral thing.


And yes, the way I modified/quoted you is definitely a fallacy.
 
On what basis does the morality of (most of) the rest of the world supersede the morality of a sovereign nation? Might makes right?

Take a peek at international law, might does indeed make right in this world. Moral aside.

There more interesting question is imo.: are some aspects of morality hard-wired? If so, which ones?