I have an Orange OBC115 that came with a ceramic Eminence Kappa 15A. It’s basically an orange tolex covered EV TL606 from the 70’s, except brand new. Old school, no tweeter. I liked its sound stock, but ended up wanting to try an Eminence Kappalite 3015 neodymium speaker in it due to positive reviews here. It still sounds old school, but now handles way more power and weighs nine pounds less. I’d call that a win.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Call builder David Luke at Revsound to discuss your tone needs.
From 1x10 to vertical 4x8 to 2x15, you can find what you need.
From 1x10 to vertical 4x8 to 2x15, you can find what you need.
I have a GK MB212II combo that I like a lot at 41 lbs. But, I agree that it’s slightly lacking in percussion compared to other non neo cabs (hd 212). If the schlep takes priority over my preference then I go with the neo. If not then I still don’t mind heavy lifting in favor of tone.
I've played bass for over 40 years. I don't play slap-crap or anything resembling that style. I've played hundreds of amps thru all kinds of speaker combinations. I like the new "neo" speakers. I'd already have an Ampeg 610 Neo cab if they made one.
Ok, so... neo speakers.. I can't speak from experience because I haven't played through a neo cab but with that being said I have a hard time believing that a smaller voice coil has the same ability to control a cone like a larger voice coil does. I believe that the rigidity of having a larger voice coil connected to a cone has the tendency of driving the cone more accurately.
I would like to be wrong because I would like to be able to carry light cabinets. Or build a nice light cabinet from some decent Neo speakers. Bottom line is maybe I couldn't tell the difference.
@agedhorse if I'm wrong, if the Sonic difference really isn't that much different then please let me know.
I would like to be wrong because I would like to be able to carry light cabinets. Or build a nice light cabinet from some decent Neo speakers. Bottom line is maybe I couldn't tell the difference.
@agedhorse if I'm wrong, if the Sonic difference really isn't that much different then please let me know.
While I'm legitimately not sure on a technical level if there's that easy of a correlation between voice coil size and cone control (others can chime in on that front), I do know that there are a number of reasons why a large voice coil can potentially be beneficial.
Anyways, strictly concerning size comparisons, the neo driver that I use has a 3" voice coil... just out of curiosity, how big are the voice coils that you're thinking of?
Last edited:
Voice coil diameter and magnet composition are two separate variables of speaker design. Both the Kappa 15A ceramic speaker and the Kappalite 3015 neodymium driver I replaced it with have 3” voice coils.
@jazzbass_5, @voided3 is correct. Whether your magnet is ceramic, neodymium or alnico, they all produce the needed magnetic field for the voice coil to travel through. I am not an electrical engineer, but I once discussed this very subject with a gentlemen I very much respected that is an electrical engineer and acoustical engineer. He told me that all things being equal, a speaker with any of the 3 magnets would be identical and sound identical when new as long as they were designed with the same specs. Now with age, different magnets lose their magnetic field at different rates.
Anyone with more knowledge, feel free to chime in. Someone may prefer the sound of a speaker with a ceramic magnet better than a different one with a neo magnet, but it is the T/S specifications (and other specs) that are making the difference...not the magnet. Respectfully submitted.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,002
- 5
- 220,801
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Voice coil size has little (directly) to do with performance. In fact, as voice coils get larger in diameter, flux density becomes harder to maintain.
As a direct example, all of the new JBL differential drive speakers (top of the line pro drivers, better than anything typically seen in the bass guitar market) use 3" diameter voice coils (2 of them stacked on a dual gap motor) rather than the 4" diameter voice coils on their previous pro designs.
Neo is the material the motor is made from, it has much higher magnetic strength per gram of material, which makes things possible that simply weren't using ceramic magnet motors. The smaller amount of material needed (like 10-20%) allows the magnet's geometry and position within the motor to be much more precise, with the magnetic slug typically located where the entire pole piece sits on a ceramic magnet motor. Because this slug fits within the center of the coil, and because of it's geometry, it's possible to lower the inductance which extends the high frequency response. This is the basis for why Neo speakers CAN be brighter, but this is only if the designer wants or allows it.
Cone control (potential, as there are ways to reduce this electronically) is all about the strength of the motor, and the strength of the motor is not directly related to voice coil size.
As a direct example, all of the new JBL differential drive speakers (top of the line pro drivers, better than anything typically seen in the bass guitar market) use 3" diameter voice coils (2 of them stacked on a dual gap motor) rather than the 4" diameter voice coils on their previous pro designs.
Neo is the material the motor is made from, it has much higher magnetic strength per gram of material, which makes things possible that simply weren't using ceramic magnet motors. The smaller amount of material needed (like 10-20%) allows the magnet's geometry and position within the motor to be much more precise, with the magnetic slug typically located where the entire pole piece sits on a ceramic magnet motor. Because this slug fits within the center of the coil, and because of it's geometry, it's possible to lower the inductance which extends the high frequency response. This is the basis for why Neo speakers CAN be brighter, but this is only if the designer wants or allows it.
Cone control (potential, as there are ways to reduce this electronically) is all about the strength of the motor, and the strength of the motor is not directly related to voice coil size.
Sounds like we have similar tastes. I have tried and sold Aguilar, Bergantino and Markbass neo cabs and settled on an all ceramic line up. The Berg HDNs were the best but not as good as the HDs IMHO, especially at higher volumes. Saying that I did try a Fender Neo 410 the other day and that was pretty good, but at 60lbs and only 500w is not light enough to justify the swap.
I'd love to know what cabs the OP has tried. I have been running an older Carvin 210 cab that I put Deltalite neos in and they made that cab kick butt. I Just switched to an Epifani 410UL neo cab and it kicks butt even more at 1000 watts and only 57 pounds.
It makes me
.
It makes me.
Last edited:
So there is a significant diffences between with NEO cabs? It reminds me this rumor about class D amps being different than A/B class amps.
Fine! Im' interested in this oneI Just switched to an Epifani 410UL neo cab and it kicks butt even more at 1000 watts and only 57 pounds.
My dream cab to!!
I play a Sunn 2000S 2x15 cab.
I swapped the EVs I had in it out for Faital 15PR400s.
They sound just as good, maybe better, and I'm no longer afraid of turning up the low end a bit.
I'll be testing my 2000s and 2x15 2000s JBL D140 cab with a Broughton HPF soon.
Agreed. When Neo came out, I avoided it like the plague, until a friend at Ernie ball recommended a rig, which I then bought.
It sounded so good that I soon forgot just how different that it was compared to the norm. It was one of the first class d neo setups.
I also became a 10" snob as their popularity grew with the "flea age", so I'd never stoop to 12's either...
10 years later, my favorite cab of the eight that I have is a mesa 412, and I couldn't even tell you what speakers are in it. The Ampeg 810 has the greatest following of all, and yet it's not for me.
Old cabs were built to last, but little was dedicated toward tuning and design, so I think it was largely speaker driven, but as @agedhorse said, now, there are sooooo many flavors... four different 410's can sound completely different. I doubt that was so evident 20 years ago.
I haven't even heard of the brands that some tbers talk about and swear by, but I do know that they're not all created equal. I've been living large, in love with my sound and cabs for the last decade... but now my collection of cabs has bought me a new kind of happiness and excitement.
No matter what bass or head I buy now, I know that I'll have weeks of experimenting ahead as I try all of the different cabs and configurations.
And while I do own a Mesa PH412, Ampeg Heritage 810, SVT212... I also own 4 neo's that I'll never part with. Hard to try them all now with the internet shopping, but necessary because they're not all equal.
I've got a load of amps, I've also got an 800rb that I wanted to pair with a smaller cab that sounded good. I ended up with an Ampeg 212av. This combo sounds great. Light, full and as loud as I want it to go. Might wanna try one of those. Tweeter off.
Well your search continues then I suppose. I will say though even though I have downgraded my quite a bit over the more recent years, someday my back will love me even more going to a lighter neo cabinet when that times does come. I like the sound of the Mesa Subway series cabs, maybe by then I can pick one up for cheap.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,002
- 5
- 220,801
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
It depends very much on the designer's intent. In many cases Neo drivers can get the designer closer to their goal with less weight. In some cases they may not be the best choice.So there is a significant diffences between with NEO cabs? It reminds me this rumor about class D amps being different than A/B class amps.
Fine! Im' interested in this one
My dream cab to!!
New stuff always gets this treatment.
Transistor amps
Class D amps
Round wound strings
Permament magnet (alnico) speakers (early speakers had field coils)
Ceramic magnet speakers (they require a magnetic circuit that's different from alnico magnets
Neodymium magnet speakers (they require a magnetic circuit that's different than ceramic magnets - it's actually much more like an alnico magnet in the circuit it requires)
Electric guitars - too loud
Violins - too loud (the previous string instruments, viols, were quieter, and the louder violins were though to be the work of the devil)
People are resistant to change. Whether or not the difference is really there, they'll distrust it at first.
If you haven't found a neo speaker you like, don't blame it on the magnet. I have two cabinets at home - one is neo, the other ceramic. My smaller cabinet is the ceramic one, because the parameters I need for that cabinet don't exist yet in a neo speaker. For the bigger cabinet, there was a neo speaker with the right parameters, so it works well, and I appreciate the weight difference. If a neo speaker becomes available that work in the smaller cabinet, I'll change that one, but for now, what works is what works.
Transistor amps
Class D amps
Round wound strings
Permament magnet (alnico) speakers (early speakers had field coils)
Ceramic magnet speakers (they require a magnetic circuit that's different from alnico magnets
Neodymium magnet speakers (they require a magnetic circuit that's different than ceramic magnets - it's actually much more like an alnico magnet in the circuit it requires)
Electric guitars - too loud
Violins - too loud (the previous string instruments, viols, were quieter, and the louder violins were though to be the work of the devil)
People are resistant to change. Whether or not the difference is really there, they'll distrust it at first.
If you haven't found a neo speaker you like, don't blame it on the magnet. I have two cabinets at home - one is neo, the other ceramic. My smaller cabinet is the ceramic one, because the parameters I need for that cabinet don't exist yet in a neo speaker. For the bigger cabinet, there was a neo speaker with the right parameters, so it works well, and I appreciate the weight difference. If a neo speaker becomes available that work in the smaller cabinet, I'll change that one, but for now, what works is what works.
