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Is it reasonable to ask for pay?

J

joeyc143

Feb 8, 2009
4
0
California
#1
Hey TB-

I wanted to ask a question that may trigger some debate, which is all good (can't go wrong with a healthy debate), but I am at an impasse and could use some advice.

I have been a active member of my church's worship team playing bass for somewhere around 4-5 years. My weekly duties include either playing bass or running the audio/sound system. I play for the youth group about twice a month as well. This is a commitment of about 10-12 hours a week including practice time. The worship pastor also asks that I teach the other bassists the new songs we introduce as well. I gladly serve every time they need me, even if it's a last minute fill in. I also have almost the whole repertoire of about 50+ songs memorized as the pastor prefers we memorize the songs so we can lead the congregation easier. Being a leader on stage is a duty in itself that can be a source of pressure. Most members of the team will have sheet music in front of them during worship. Not only do I play a part in worship, but as a member of the church I am involved with small groups and I try to be a good example on and off stage. I have never asked for any compensation, and I normally wouldn't, but I have no job and the only skill I have refined (and in my opinion is worth anything) is with my bass playing. I don't even need much money, but I feel very undervalued as I am not treated much different from the less experienced musicians. It's sort of like a part time job and I would like a little recognition for that. I can understand that the church may consider worship a ministry, and thus not have to pay musicians, but our worship team is so large that it's hard to consider it a ministry because it is nearly impossible to know everyone's names let alone have fellowship with one another.

Anyway, is it wrong to ask for pay? I feel like I might have to leave the church if this continues any longer. Not that I want to, as I know that it is important to work for God as well. But as they say, God provides for us. Unfortunately I hardly have enough money to put gas in my car to get there and serve. I have once asked for gas money, but the pastor refused. Right after that he said he couldn't imagine the worship band without me. So what should I do? Ask for compensation? Leave if they refuse? Also, what is a reasonable stipend to ask for? I feel like there is a solution to this problem, but the arguments for paid musicians and against seem to be equally reasonable. Lets try and work this out. I know we can come to at least a clearer understanding of this topic as I know everyone here on TB is logical and we all know the value of hard work when it comes to being a bass player.
 
#3
It might be a hard situation to deal with, because you effectively have two relationships with the church -- a religious one and a professional one. For this reason, working those things out separately might be the thing to do, by looking for a music leadership position at another church.
 
#6
Wrote down everything that you do and present it to someone. This likely will not work. You could also cut back in what you do and say that you can afford it. Tell them that you can only make it on Sunday. Very few churches pay their musicians, Hillsong doesn't even pay their regulars to play on Sundays.

lowsound
 
#8
A lot of worship leaders draw some form of salary. A lot of the musicians don't. So if you are not considered a leader, pull back a little and just be a player. The other bassist should learn their own parts or have the "paid" worship leader show them or make charts. Use the time you save to try finding work. Definately let the leadership team at the church know why you are pulling back you commitment. Then the ball will be in their court so to speak. This can be done without resentment from either side if it's handled right. A man's gotta eat.....
 
#10
joeyc143 said:
Yes, the worship pastor does get paid a full time salary.
Click to expand...

Then it’s not unreasonable for you to ask for pay. Is it not written - a labor is worthy their wages? First pray, then talk with the worship pastor along with the senior pastor and tell them how you feel just like you did here. If they’re God’s ministers they will want to help you. I wish you the very best.
 
#11
Unfortunately, you started taking on the work without its being a paid position, so effectively what you're asking is for the church to turn a volunteer position into a paid one. That would be a significant budget decision on the part of church leadership, and I wouldn't count on it happening. Some churches are well-heeled enough to support paid musicians, but many others run on a shoestring. If they've already said no to gas money, I don't see how they would say yes to paying a wage.

Is the work you're doing valuable and worth being paid? Absolutely. But so is that of all volunteers. You need to decide what you're doing it for. If it's not worth it to you to keep putting in the time you are, then definitely pull out.
 
#12
I would get a job and if you feel like the time commitment is too much then pull back. Sooner or later you'll need to get a real job, might as well be sooner. If you are going to make playing a career, playing at a local church wouldn't even cover rent. For someone who has hardly enough to put gas in their car for church. You should look for something more substantial.

Most of my friends are going through this right now, and they tour with well known national worship bands. They all have other jobs, whether on staff as a tech person at a church, teach lessons full time, or work out in an office somewhere.
 
#14
Jammin' for Jesus is cool. However, what you describe is a part time employment situation for sure. I realize that all religious organizations rely on volunteerism to make them function. I do also believe that there is, or would be a large amount of guilt placed on people who ask for compensation in a case like yours. Tough call. Do what you feel.
 
#15
Hi.

IMLE, the only option that You have is to get a job if you want to keep on working for free for your belief.
Asking around in Your church will land you a (part time) job if it's the community it should be.
IMHO anyway.

If You as much as ask for compensation, your real or imagined "worth" diminishes very quickly and you become "that greedy guy" in a heartbeat.
By asking gas money, You've probably already crossed that line.

Of course You're irreplaceable at this very moment, you're performing somewhat expensive duties for free.
Teaching is what, $20/hour/student minimum?
Band leading is what $50/set minimum?
Running sound $50/ night minimum?
Etc.

Make no mistake though, if You should become unavailable or unwanted for some reason or another in any of those duties you currently perform, your place would be filled in a heatbeat. Not necessarily by a single individual, but by someone none the less.

Good luck in any case.

Regards
Sam

PS. Placing Your future on just one card, not to mention that card being playing bass, is not something I'd suggest or encourage.
 
#16
joeyc143 said:
Anyway, is it wrong to ask for pay? I feel like I might have to leave the church if this continues any longer. Not that I want to, as I know that it is important to work for God as well. But as they say, God provides for us. Unfortunately I hardly have enough money to put gas in my car to get there and serve. I have once asked for gas money, but the pastor refused. Right after that he said he couldn't imagine the worship band without me. So what should I do? Ask for compensation? Leave if they refuse? Also, what is a reasonable stipend to ask for? I feel like there is a solution to this problem, but the arguments for paid musicians and against seem to be equally reasonable. Lets try and work this out. I know we can come to at least a clearer understanding of this topic as I know everyone here on TB is logical and we all know the value of hard work when it comes to being a bass player.
Click to expand...

The thing is, different churches tend to have differing ethics and differing policies governing this kind of thing - which makes a universal answer that would be applicable to all situations pretty much a nonexistent thing. My church, for example (LDS), has no such programs as this, and therefore, no paid music ministry positions at all - at least not at the local level. But many of the Protestant churches do - especially some of the more independent congregations.

If the kind of duties that you're fulfilling are typically compensated in the denomination to which you belong, then it surely doesn't hurt to ask. So be assertive.

But if I were in your shoes, I wouldn't count on a meager subsistence from my church for my financial support. Get a job. And if you don't feel you have any marketable skills, then develop some. It never hurts to broaden one's skills set.

If your church turns down your request for pay, and if the 10-12 hours per week that you devote to the music ministry would truly conflict with the ability to hold down a job, then inform them that you will need to make self-support a priority, and you will continue to devote time to the music ministry only as time allows. Then move forward accordingly.

IMO, leaving your church entirely over this issue makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. There are legitimate reasons to leave one's church. But IMO, nearly all of them are theological in nature - and none of them should be based purely on how much income one can make from performing music in the church. :eyebrow:

MM
 
#17
Alright guys. Thanks for the responses. I never said anywhere in my post about making a living off of this. Its a matter of principle. I haven't been able to afford to buy a new pair of pants in the past year. I am very depressed because they can just toss me to the side like nothing after all these years. Did I mention I played on two full length albums that the church released? I didn't even consider compensation when I was doing that because I had some small form of income and I was happy. Now I'm depressed and I'm sure any one of you would be too if your talent on bass was taken for granted. We are not a church on a small budget. We have many out of the country ministries, a large and ever growing congregation, and we even have plans to expand. Not to mention there are 4 full timers plus 5 part time pastors there. I'm not asking for much. I don't want this to be my living. I just feel like something to make me feel more appreciated is what I need to keep from feeling depressed. Is it wrong that I want to feel self worth from my faithfulness? You are certainly proving that to me guys.

So I appreciate everyone telling me about finding a 'real' job, but that isn't what I am asking. You are getting off topic. I just wanted to know if it's fair to ask because I go above and beyond. Anyway, thanks for all the input.
 
#19
It is certainly fair to ask for some compensation. However, it is the church's decision whether they are willing to pay you. I think if you should write a list of all the things you do for the program including how much time you invest. You should then decide what part of that time you are willing to continue investing without compensation and decide what tasks you feel you should not do if there is no compensation forthcoming. Present this to your pastor and make it clear that you still wish to help the church, but that too much is currently being asked of you and you cannot financially or emotionally continue with the status quo.
 

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