Double Bass Is it the bass or the amp?

[matthewbrown]

IME, I get a lot more low end with an amp than I can project from my URB unamplified, even when the amp is a little Contra with a 10" speaker firing down (great amp, BTW). I think a lot of it has to do with eq and how we hear low end. But I play pizz virtually all the time. With a bow, things are quite different. I once heard Lucas Drew make the rafters shake unamplified with a bow...

 

[damonsmith]

I would look at all of them. I do not believe in any of the non-sense that you can make great music with any bass. All gear has it's limits. I can certainly work with the limits of a bass to get through a set, but, most pro bassists need a certain level of instrument. Ply basses CAN sound OK, they are going to be limited in tone, and physically demanding to play.
I would start with your bass and your technique, move on to the amp and then the pick up and cables.
If you can play some gigs with no amp, then your odds of getting some of the wood in the sound improve. Pick Ups like the BP-100 that near the strings get more string sound. Pick ups with more wood between the strings have a better chance of getting that into the amp. You can't get a perfect acoustic sound in a loud setting without super pro house sound. You can get a crisp attack and a warm tone that projects with money and effort.
Amps, pick ups and basses all make a huge difference. I used to not worry so much about my amplified sound, once I was regularly playing with high-end drummers it really became an issue. I had to invest in more and better gear and practice specific things.
I still mainly play acoustic. On one hand it means I have a big, clear sound. On the other, it can be amateur-hour when I need to twist knobs in a weird room.
My GK was way more straight forward, the same setting got a similar tone in most rooms. The AI can get a far more nuanced sound, but, different settings are called for more often.

The less technique and experience you have the more sub par gear is going to get in your way - strong young people who think ply basses "sound good" aside. When I was 22, I thought my Englehardt sounded good, too. I could also carry it all over SF and Oakland with just a shoulder strap and no car!

 

[matthewbrown]

I consider amplification an integral part of my sound. I was lucky to be able to afford the plywood Upton that I currently am enjoying. While I admire the sound of a purely acoustic group, the signal chain has been part of the jazz tradition ever since jazz players adopted amplification (and they were early adopters of any means to make stringed instruments louder). This is part of how the sound of jazz has evolved, IMO. Miles' sound on his classic recordings is as much a result of his use of a close mic and reverb as much as his instrumental technique. That's a classic sound now. Likewise the Hammond organ. So I don't feel I'm selling the tradition, the audience, myself or the instrument short by using amplification as well as I can.

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

My $.02:
When amplifying our instrument, we have two main goals.
1) Maintaining the character and nuance of the acoustic instrument
2) Doing so at higher volumes with a tone that actually works in ‘the mix’

In my experience, choosing a pickup or mic that is best for the #1) doesn’t work too well in the #2) situations.

My approach has been to accept that reality and strive for an amplified tone that is warm and ‘acoustic sounding’, without piezo quack or nasties. Those artifacts are problems common to certain pickups but can be tamed with a high impedance amp (preamp). I’m not a fan of the Underwood, BP100 or other pickups of that era or ilk.

So?
I have a Realist Lifeline on two basses and recently put a Full Circle on my Kay. The Kay had a Realist Copperhead which was OK but I took the FC as payment for some setup work. It is terrible through the GK MB150S, sounding like the worst Ron Carter you ever heard playing through an empty beer can. Really nice through the Clarus set to 10k and Acme B1 cabinet. This setup will work well on the loudest gigs. The Lifeline has worked well on the three basses through the GK, but the FC seems to have a bit of the piezo quack. I might try it with the Fdeck wonderbox.

I don’t play stupid loud anymore but quite often, my gigs have the amp winning out over the acoustic volume.

We all have to figure out what works for us. What gets the tone we hear in our heads out of the speaker cabinet?

P.S. I need an amplified tone that works well when I grab the bow. Don’t want to peel paint or scare cats.

TEHO, YMMV, etc.....

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

My $.02:
When amplifying our instrument, we have two main goals.
1) Maintaining the character and nuance of the acoustic instrument
2) Doing so at higher volumes with a tone that actually works in ‘the mix’

In my experience, choosing a pickup or mic that is best for the #1) doesn’t work too well in the #2) situations.

My approach has been to accept that reality and strive for an amplified tone that is warm and ‘acoustic sounding’, without piezo quack or nasties. Those artifacts are problems common to certain pickups but can be tamed with a high impedance amp (preamp). I’m not a fan of the Underwood, BP100 or other pickups of that era or ilk.

So?
I have a Realist Lifeline on two basses and recently put a Full Circle on my Kay. The Kay had a Realist Copperhead which was OK but I took the FC as payment for some setup work. It is terrible through the GK MB150S, sounding like the worst Ron Carter you ever heard playing through an empty beer can. Really nice through the Clarus set to 10k and Acme B1 cabinet. This setup will work well on the loudest gigs. The Lifeline has worked well on the three basses through the GK, but the FC seems to have a bit of the piezo quack. I might try it with the Fdeck wonderbox.

I don’t play stupid loud anymore but quite often, my gigs have the amp winning out over the acoustic volume.

We all have to figure out what works for us. What gets the tone we hear in our heads out of the speaker cabinet?

P.S. I need an amplified tone that works well when I grab the bow. Don’t want to peel paint or scare cats.

TEHO, YMMV, etc.....

Also, I think it’s generally accepted that basses a tighter, simpler acoustic tone amplify better. Plywood basses amplify better as a rule.

 

[lurk]

I consider amplification an integral part of my sound. I was lucky to be able to afford the plywood Upton that I currently am enjoying. While I admire the sound of a purely acoustic group, the signal chain has been part of the jazz tradition ever since jazz players adopted amplification (and they were early adopters of any means to make stringed instruments louder). This is part of how the sound of jazz has evolved, IMO. Miles' sound on his classic recordings is as much a result of his use of a close mic and reverb as much as his instrumental technique. That's a classic sound now. Likewise the Hammond organ. So I don't feel I'm selling the tradition, the audience, myself or the instrument short by using amplification as well as I can.

Yep. I remember a great Phil Schaap interview with Ray Brown and Phil brought up the subject of "modern" bassists using pickups and amps clearly trying to lead Ray into a discussion of "these guys these days rely on the amp too much" etc etc. Ray gave a long answer about how much he loved being amplified and how he was one of the first guys to experiment with very primitive equipment before dedicated bass amps and pickups existed and that he thought amplification was one of the best things to ever happen to jazz bass.

 

[CaseyVancouver]

I have five bass amps and two carved uprights. I match the amp to the gig and drummer, and mostly use either an Ampeg b15n tube amp or GK mb112 II, which has additional powered 12” speaker if needed. I use a Realist pickup and have an Underwood if I need it.

I find it is the drummer who determines how loud a band is. Sometimes the venue too.

My 7/8th bass sounds not much different than my 5/8ths bass when there is a hard hitting drummer. Usually I take the 5/8ths for amplified band gigs. Loud gigs I use the b15n. For a stupid loud gig the best sound has been taking the di out of the GK amp and going front of house, letting the sound man take care of things. In that instance the GK is effectively a monitor only for me.

To answer the op’s original question ‘is it the bass or the amp’? Ime, you need good equipment, with both bass and amp, but it’s the bassist who is the most important link in the chain.

I recall a seminar I took with Ray Brown when he was with the LA4. He sounded stellar, and I had a chance to play his bass, which was borrowed for the event. It was a poor instrument.

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Ray Brown:

See the video he did in the 1970’s for the BBC which is on YouTube.
He tells the student, “now I want you to turn off the amp. Play the amp, don’t let it play you”.

You have got to dig in and get some meat on the string. Garbage in, garbage out.

 

[Ric Vice]

I have five bass amps and two carved uprights. I match the amp to the gig and drummer, and mostly use either an Ampeg b15n tube amp or GK mb112 II, which has additional powered 12” speaker if needed. I use a Realist pickup and have an Underwood if I need it.

Which confirms my belief, that although it's on the heavy side the Ampeg B-15N was one of the few amps really designed to address the needs of Double Bassists. Channel 1's main input loads at 5.6 Meg Ohms, The preamp is great, and the Double Baffle Reflex cabinet sounds very natural.

I find it is the drummer who determines how loud a band is. Sometimes the venue too.

Ad Libitum, Ad Nasium, Amen

My 7/8th bass sounds not much different than my 5/8ths bass when there is a hard hitting drummer. Usually I take the 5/8ths for amplified band gigs. Loud gigs I use the b15n. For a stupid loud gig the best sound has been taking the di out of the GK amp and going front of house, letting the sound man take care of things. In that instance the GK is effectively a monitor only for me.

It's really the best way to do it, you can't really set an amplifier to sound right on the stage and out in the house, unless it's a very small venue

To answer the op’s original question ‘is it the bass or the amp’? Ime, you need good equipment, with both bass and amp, but it’s the bassist who is the most important link in the chain.

Very true, and after attending the ISB conventions for several yeare, there is definitely no shortage of great bass players world wide.

I recall a seminar I took with Ray Brown when he was with the LA4. He sounded stellar, and I had a chance to play his bass, which was borrowed for the event. It was a poor instrument.

Touring bassists have to learn to adapt to other instruments very quickly, or deal with international and domestic ariline security.

 

[Ric Vice]

Ray Brown:

See the video he did in the 1970’s for the BBC which is on YouTube.
He tells the student, “now I want you to turn off the amp. Play the amp, don’t let it play you”.

You have got to dig in and get some meat on the string. Garbage in, garbage out.

How true, but just to play the devil's advocate, which I rarely do. Although Ray always sounded beautiful acoustically, being an endorser, and sponsor of Polytone pickups

there were ocassions where the sound out in the room was, let's say less than optimal. Not the playing, mind you, that was always stellar, just to tone quality.

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

In fairness, that WAS the sound. Pick at random any Ron Carter, Buster Williams, Eddie, etc recording. Heck, even some Charlie Haden recordings from that era and you will likely hear an overly middy, electric sounding mess that might sound as much like Jaco as an acoustic bass. I suspect Ray would sound more like the Ray we know, were he to play today.

 

[bigshiny]

I believe that each bass has its own character when amplified. Everything used to amplify that bass can make subtle or major changes to the sound you are trying to achieve. There are so many variables to the end result. Not to mention variables that are not part of your signal chain. What works for me is choosing the right cab for the job. Everything else stays pretty consistent.
Just my .02

 

[james condino]

I live in a town of 90,000 people that gets 12,000,000 (yes- 12 million...****!) tourists a year and has close to 100 breweries and pubs that all have live music at least three nights a week, and more for many.

One of my friends who gigs about five nights a week has four different basses and 25 different amp and cabinet combinations in his never ending quest to find "his sound" on every gig; that is just his upright quiver. Do you wanna be that guy???

 

[matthewbrown]

I live in a town of 90,000 people that gets 12,000,000 (yes- 12 million...****!) tourists a year and has close to 100 breweries and pubs that all have live music at least three nights a week, and more for many.

One of my friends who gigs about five nights a week has four different basses and 25 different amp and cabinet combinations in his never ending quest to find "his sound" on every gig; that is just his upright quiver. Do you wanna be that guy???

Has he had a chat with any of the banjo players in town?

 

[Ric Vice]

In fairness, that WAS the sound. Pick at random any Ron Carter, Buster Williams, Eddie, etc recording. Heck, even some Charlie Haden recordings from that era and you will likely hear an overly middy, electric sounding mess that might sound as much like Jaco as an acoustic bass. I suspect Ray would sound more like the Ray we know, were he to play today.

Very true, this was in early 1998, if memory serves me, so we’re a little past the “rule of the piezos”
and I was hearing him live at Jazz at the Bistro here in St.Louis. So I was hearing the mostly the Electro Voice RE 20 but because I was pretty close up front I also heard the Pickup.

 

[CaseyVancouver]

I live in a town of 90,000 people that gets 12,000,000 (yes- 12 million...****!) tourists a year and has close to 100 breweries and pubs that all have live music at least three nights a week, and more for many.

Awesome! All I see is gig opportunities for a bassist!!!

 

[bassmanbrent]

One of my friends who gigs about five nights a week has four different basses and 25 different amp and cabinet combinations in his never ending quest to find "his sound" on every gig; that is just his upright quiver. Do you wanna be that guy???

Too late for me. I'm pretty much already that guy

 

[bassmanbrent]

Although Ray always sounded beautiful acoustically, being an endorser, and sponsor of Polytone pickups
there were ocassions where the sound out in the room was, let's say less than optimal. Not the playing, mind you, that was always stellar, just to tone quality.

I saw Ray in Seattle with Christian McBride and John Clayton (in the late 90's?) and Ray's trio played the opening set. He was using a clip-on Polytone pickup and a Peavy amp. I was close to the front of the stage so could hear more of his amp sound than the PA. It was loud and it was UGLY. The playing was as great as you would expect, but Ray's amp sound was pretty unpleasant for that set. Fortunately, he dialled it way back for the Superbass set and everybody played and sounded amazing.

 

[dan1952]

I take flak from the purists because I use a laminate 60's Hofner-built bass and a Krivo magnetic pickup. Guess what? It can be heard, even with a loud drummer, the tone is good enough for the audience, the sound guy, and the BL. And I get paid, so...

 

[The Biz]

. So I was hearing the mostly the Electro Voice RE 20 but because I was pretty close up front I also heard the Pickup.

RE20 on bass sounds real nice. Impractical for gigs (for me) though.