Double Bass Is it the bass or the amp?

[Saxophone Phil]

I've been thinking about what I'm hearing.
I play cheap double bass made in the 1920s - it's not a high quality instrument, but it looks great. But with a good set up, good strings, a decent piezo pickup I'm getting a reasonable sound, even though the amp I use is nothing special.

But when I play with a jazz or rock band, what I'm hearing is entirely the amplified sound - the acoustic sound of the bass cannot be heard at all over the rest of the band. So I'm thinking about what makes the main contribution to the sound...

The amp (and signal processors) - I've tried a few amps, and some of them made the bass sound awful. the current one sounds OK, but I can imagine better. Changes to the signal path to get the impedance matched and add a little compression help a lot to.

The strings - a new set of spirocore strings made a huge difference.

The pickup - I have not had the chance to try a lot of different pickups, but I expect these would change the sound. I have a KNA piezo pickup.

But - the actual bass? I expect a really good bass would sound a lot better than mine acoustically, but I doubt if the audience would notice it through the amp. Upgrade the amp, strings and pickup and you could improve the sound of your set up, but investing in an (expensive) high quality bass might not make much difference once you run it through an amp. I'm thinking that if I did have a really good bass I'd leave it safe at home, and just use the battered old bass I have now for gigs.

Does anyone have experience of the difference a classy or cheap bass makes once it's running through an amp in a jazz or rock context?

 

[dreamadream99]

If you are right, the difference in sound is negligee, but the cost will be few thousand dollars.

 

[Saxophone Phil]

Be interesting to know if anyone has had a chance to use the same pickup and amp with different basses, and how much the amplified sound changed.
Like you say, the difference in cost between the workable basic laminate bass and a really good one is significant.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

For most situations, the audience hears a blended sound of the bass and the amp. Once above a certain volume threshold, the acoustic sound fades into the background. There is a certain category of gig that often gets referred to as "stoopid loud" on this forum. Once that level is reached, many feel the best choice would be to simply use a magnetic pickup or an electric bass to avoid the headaches and feedback that these situations often entail for double bassists.

That said, different basses amplify differently. I have both a laminate and a carved top bass, and the acoustic timbre of each comes through in the amplification chain. Getting a strong acoustic sound is the first link in the chain, because that set of vibrations that we make with our hands and the bass is what any pickup or microphone will be attempting to amplify. I wrote an article about the blended sound that can be found Link Removed. Hope this helps.

 

[brianrost]

My personal experience has been that the amplified sound dominates above a certain volume threshold, which all rock gigs will reach easily. If I have to wear earplugs, then the acoustic sound is going to be overwhelmed. I have come to terms with that sound after over 20 years of gigs. The closest to a realistic acoustic sound requires amplifiers designed to have flat response, more like a PA system or studio monitor. That type of bass amp...I'm thinking mfrs like AI, EA, AER, MAS...tends to be pretty expensive.

As far as the contribution of the instrument, yes, the better the bass sounds acoustically the better it sounds amplified in my experience. I own an Azola solid body EUB that I use for traveling and it sounds noticeably less acoustic than my two DBs. I've also owned Ampeg and Zeta EUBs and my experience with them was the same. I own two laminate DBs, a no-name German and a Juzek. The Juzek is more open and detailed, the other is more of a thumper. Both have Full Circle pickups and they retain their personalities through an amp.

My Juzek is set up with steel strings and has a Pierre Josephs magnetic pickup as well as the FC. The mag pickup really sounds like a fretless BG (or Ron Carter ) but for any gig where I'm expecting screaming loud stage volume and/or questionable provided amplifiers, that's what I'll use. If going direct into a PA, I run the FC through a Baggs preamp for some volume and EQ control and that usually sounds better than using an amp, unless the sound person has no idea what a DB should sound like.

 

[Don Hergert]

I've never amped "stupid loud", yet... Most of my amping is simply done to be heard by me, the band and the audience over a plethora of acoustic instruments, including piano, many being played unnecessarily loud. Sometimes I've amped just for my own hearing, sometimes I've mic'ed my amp in order to be picked up in a mic mix, and sometimes I've Di'ed for the mix and amped for my personal hearing. But so far, it's never been what I would consider "stupid loud". Since my background is acoustic and that's where I'm most comfortable, and because in my older years I'm doing everything I can to protect my diminished hearing, I'm not sure that will ever really happen with me...

That said, in reading the OP I have to wonder if the bass being discussed is using a pre-amp. My impression of playing a lot over the last year, first without and then with a pre-amp, is that for a piezo, having that extra set of EQs and the magnitude difference in volume headroom does make a big tone difference when playing amped. I agree that at least with piezo pickups, as the amped volume goes up the acoustic tone value of the instrument goes down, but with a pre-amp's extra set of EQs there is an enhanced ability to model the sound the way a person wants it to be.

My amp is a relatively inexpensive small combo amp that along with its own set of EQs and tone controls, includes a selector for various vintage amp voicings. I routinely turn that off by going "clear", and do all my sound modelling with the EQs on my pre-amp and on my amp. Then it depends on the room (or stage, or environment), sometimes I'll leave my pre-amp EQs flat but high, and control the EQs sufficiently at the amp, and sometimes I'll need both EQs to manage the tone. But even when the pre-amp EQs are flat, the headroom difference from using the pre-amp allows the amp's EQs to do their work more efficiently.

My bass being a metal bass, I've sometimes thought I like my bass' tone better pre-amped and amped because I have more control of how it sounds... And sometimes I've really liked its acoustic tone. I think a lot of that depends on the strings and setup and the room.

 

[Pat Harris]

It's been my experience that a bass that it setup for optimal *acoustic* performance is NOT the best for optimal *amplified* performance. It's easy to quickly surpass the acoustic output of an upright bass.

It's not only volume that is an issue, it's the frequency slotting that makes an upright sound like an upright. If you're playing with bigger drums, multiple guitars, etc, there isn't a ton of room in the mix for the upright to be heard. If you're relying solely on amplification to be heard, it's been my experience that the acoustic properties of the instrument are pretty negligible at that point.

I can't understand why somebody would tour with an expensive carved bass when it's inevitably going to be compressed and EQ'd to function in a front of house mix. The frequencies we associate with an upright bass timbre get eaten alive in the context of a full band. If you're amping up, go for the best amped sound you can get.

 

[Ric Vice]

Be interesting to know if anyone has had a chance to use the same pickup and amp with different basses, and how much the amplified sound changed.
Like you say, the difference in cost between the workable basic laminate bass and a really good one is significant.

I have a very nice Mirecourt 5/8ths bass with a lamanate back (probably because the original back was dammaged in some way or it was built around World War I and trench warfare tore through the forests in Europe).
While it isn't a fine Itallian bass it sounds really good orchestrally or on jazz gigs. My wife owns a Knilling Flatback from around the same period, so I've been afforded the opportunity to try various pickups on two
different basses. The Realist sounds much the same between the two instruments, while the Ehrlund EAP (because it senses the table) sounds slightly better on my smaller bass, an Upton Revolution Solo sounds nearly
identical on both instruments. The Fishman BP-100 sounds awful on both instruments. In all these cases I was using the same amp(s) and cabinets. Of the newer piezo pickups
I've had the chance to listen to the KNA sounds really good and with a fully lamintae instrument pickups that sense the top like the Ischell, Ehrlund, and even the Realist don't work as well. Just my take, of course.

 

[jthisdell]

I think DB benefits tremendously from a higher end cab, I had a Bergantino NV115 cab I used with eub but sold it to find something smaller that fit in my car. This guy came over to try it out and buy it with his db, I was completely blown away, hearing both the acoustic and the amplified sound it was impossible to tell which was which. He had been using an AI amp and was very dissatisfied with it but said the AI head through the Berg was fantastic.

 

[lurk]

I have had students with truly awful cheap Chinese basses and I think they have benefitted from Spiro Mitts and the BP100. One of the many valid gripes about that pick up is that every bass sounds the same with it. On a not great bass that can be a good thing. Also, try wearing earplugs designed especially for musicians. You'll be able to focus down on your sound if everything's a little softer, and you'll postpone the inevitable hearing loss a little bit. You can make wonderful music on any bass, BTW, if you really focus.

 

[sean_on_bass]

I've been thinking about what I'm hearing.
I play cheap double bass made in the 1920s - it's not a high quality instrument, but it looks great. But with a good set up, good strings, a decent piezo pickup I'm getting a reasonable sound, even though the amp I use is nothing special.

But when I play with a jazz or rock band, what I'm hearing is entirely the amplified sound - the acoustic sound of the bass cannot be heard at all over the rest of the band. So I'm thinking about what makes the main contribution to the sound...

The amp (and signal processors) - I've tried a few amps, and some of them made the bass sound awful. the current one sounds OK, but I can imagine better. Changes to the signal path to get the impedance matched and add a little compression help a lot to.

The strings - a new set of spirocore strings made a huge difference.

The pickup - I have not had the chance to try a lot of different pickups, but I expect these would change the sound. I have a KNA piezo pickup.

But - the actual bass? I expect a really good bass would sound a lot better than mine acoustically, but I doubt if the audience would notice it through the amp. Upgrade the amp, strings and pickup and you could improve the sound of your set up, but investing in an (expensive) high quality bass might not make much difference once you run it through an amp. I'm thinking that if I did have a really good bass I'd leave it safe at home, and just use the battered old bass I have now for gigs.

Does anyone have experience of the difference a classy or cheap bass makes once it's running through an amp in a jazz or rock context?

Well let me ask you this. Do you like the sound of your bass acoustically? Do you think it's lacking when no amp is used? To me, that is where it starts. You find a bass that you love acoustically and then experiment with different pickups and gear that you think amplify it well. Personally, the idea of upgrading a bass that sounds good to me acoustically, simply to get a better amplified tone, is not appealing to me.

Also, remember that what you hear on stage is not necessarily what the audience is hearing. They might be hearing more of the acoustic sound than you are. Lately i have just kind of functioned under the assumption that even though i am hearing alot of amp on stage, the audience is getting more of my acoustic sound. When folks in the audience take cell phone video, i often cannot tell what is my amp and what is acoustic. Just kind of all blends together.

 

[Francois Blais]

Do you have the opportunity to try other amps/cabs?
Your profile states a cheap Peavey bass guitar amp.
May be the weakest link in the chain at the moment, and a very important one.

 

[Ric Vice]

I have had students with truly awful cheap Chinese basses and I think they have benefitted from Spiro Mitts and the BP100. One of the many valid gripes about that pick up is that every bass sounds the same with it. On a not great bass that can be a good thing. Also, try wearing earplugs designed especially for musicians. You'll be able to focus down on your sound if everything's a little softer, and you'll postpone the inevitable hearing loss a little bit. You can make wonderful music on any bass, BTW, if you really focus.

Interesting indeed, when I was playing on Kay and Goetz laminated basses in High School none of these pickups, including the BP-100 even existed. So, in a way I cut my teeth as a bassist, without the benefit of any amplification at all. When the early Barcus Berry, and Polytone pickups came along, they were pretty nasty sounding, so although I continued studying Double Bass for 6 years in college, I played a Fender Jazz Bass on most if not all of my gigs. The Underwood made things signifiantly better in jazz but was terrible at Arco, then came the Realist and voila we could get a decent enough bowed sound. Next came a Fishman Bass Blender with it's Crown mini condenser mic and ye olde BP-100. That pickup sounded so bad on my bass ( and I think many others) that I used the Underwood and Crown Mic together and the sound improved immediately. Unfortunately, for me none of the "off the shelf" earplugs work because, according to my ENT, my ear canals look more like a french horn, than the more typical trumpet shape that most folks have. Don't get me wrong, I think there absolutely necessary, and great for preventing hearing loss, but the ones I used, dramatically cut bass response and articulation, so at least from my perspective, they made intonation and playing much more difficult. Spirocore's are the go to string for many players, because they cut through, in a jazz setting, a musical theater pit or even an orchestra. They allow you to hear yourself better, but the take years to be able to play solo arco on and I'm no Mark Dresser. Evah Parizzi's solved that. Just my take of course, the BP-100 is very cost effective, but those clips mute the bridge, at least on my bass and I'm pretty resistant to gluing anything onto my bridge. The Barcus Berry putty put me off that forever.

 

[james condino]

10 different rooms with ten different bands will give you 25 different voices depending upon the day. The biggest thing to remember is that only you and two other bass players in the audience will even notice. The most important thing for me is to be loud enough and have a reasonable sound quality so that I and the rest of the band can hear it and have fun. When I show up at a gig with my $10k bass and boutique equipment my stress level is a whole lot more than when I show up with my beat up old Kay and heavily roadworn cabs, so most days I bring the Kay and laugh a lot....

 

[Saxophone Phil]

I'm sure that the weakest link in my set up is the amp, and that will be the first thing to get upgraded.
Ric Vice's first post above echoes what I was thinking - some pickups work differently, but many sound the same once amplified.

 

[unbrokenchain]

Po-man's mic setup, this cost me less than $20 and is a huge improvement over the pickup by itself. I can get away with a little mic through the amp but mostly I just send it to foh. Mic clip is attached to a piece of folded leather.

 

[Josh Kneisel]

I used to play a '75 Engelhardt ply with a BP100 through the same amps I use now and it was ok (now it sounds really bad to me but I am not sure the pup wasn't damaged while the police had it in lockup for a couple years after it was stolen from me)... I now use a Thompson ply with a Gage Lifeline and it sounds waaaaaaay better amped than the Engelhardt. I like the sound of it acoustically better as well, but the engelhardt has a fine sound acoustically.

 

[Ric Vice]

View attachment 3272661

Po-man's mic setup, this cost me less than $20 and is a huge improvement over the pickup by itself. I can get away with a little mic through the amp but mostly I just send it to foh. Mic clip is attached to a piece of folded leather.

Is that a Line Audio CM3, their wonderful, I didn't know you could use them for live performances.

 

[unbrokenchain]

Is that a Line Audio CM3, their wonderful, I didn't know you could use them for live performances.

Actually it's a cheapo CAD CM217. Had bought a whole set of CAD drum mics for $40 on craigslist a few years back (I also run sound at a couple breweries in town and they're very handy).

Somewhat relevant back story, was playing an opening slot a few months ago and the bass player for the headliner was having problems with his pickup at soundcheck (fullcircle solder joint). The soundguy lost patience with it and just put a mic up on a little stand for him. He couldn't get much monitor volume and the player wasn't happy about it but the bass sounded WAY, I mean WAY better out front where I was standing. Decided I needed to find a way to run a mic, and being a, uh, non-wealthy, musician, just dug around in the gear I already had.

I was able to mount the dynamic ones intended for snare and bass drum, but they were sort of big and clunky if not-bad sounding. The little pencil condenser is a perfect size though, it's intended as an overhead for drums but has a switchable hpf. It's of course no substitute for a mic designed for bass, but it does a much better job than I was expecting and doesn't feedback near as bad as I'd imagined. I send it through an (also cheap) ART preamp with phantom power. Maybe getting it near the f-hole would be better, but honestly right where it is, about 3/4" away from the top of the bass under the bridge, does exactly what I wanted.

Sure not piece of boutique gear but it works!

 

[lurk]

Maybe getting it near the f-hole would be better, but honestly right where it is, about 3/4" away from the top of the bass under the bridge, does exactly what I wanted.

I've had much better results both live and in the studio miking the bass where you have it - close to the top between the feet - than near the f hole. Imo the holes serve to allow the top to vibrate, not as openings for sound to escape.