Double Bass Is it time to burn my Real Book?

[emilio g]

I got to play with a really, really good guitar player today and after a few tunes he asked me how I learn songs. So I told him I'll get a lead sheet and walk basslines, play the melody, move it around the keys, play it on piano, etc.

So he told me that's all well and good, but that my sense of harmony sounded "blocky". Meaning, I tend to play the same turnarounds/chord progressions every chorus.

I asked him how to fix this and he told me he did it by giving away all his fakebooks, then whenever he was at a jam session where he didn't know a tune, trying to hear his way through it.

How do you do this??!! It may seem like a silly question, but I feel like I'm missing something. Its really frustrating when other musicians say, "oh, you'll hear it" because I usually end up being asked to leave shortly after!

A few examples from the last week or two:

When "bolivia" and "dolphin dance" got called at a session, and I was told "you'll hear 'em man". I did my best to play what I remembered from the recordings and listen to the piano player, but when I checked out the changes later on, they weren't anything close to what I thought I heard. Another time, a sax player called "giant steps" (which I know) and took 6 choruses, except he took each chorus up a whole step until he got to the original key. I would not have known if the piano player hadn't told me afterwards (he was a nice guy, the sax player was not).

I've proved to myself I can memorize plenty of music from a book, but I still don't have a good sense of harmony. Does it just kind of happen after a while?

 

[JtheJazzMan]

This is my criticism of real book format and lead sheet reading. Theyd be right, it does sound blocky. Nice neat 4 beat blocks, regular patterns over chords, it can end up sounding like youre a midi player.

Try breaking up your phrases to cross over barlines and chord changes, think countermelody under the melody. Try to hear the bigger picture of your phrases, like over 8 bars rather than just whether youre hitting a chord tone on the current chord.

 

[emilio g]

To clarify, my issue is more of an ear training problem. Transcribing seems to be teaching me how to play asymmetrical phrases and cross bar lines pretty freely.

But I don't instinctively add in substitutions, and when other people do, I usually don't know what they are. Sure, I can benefit from working out some extra ii-V's sequences but that's not where my question is.

I still have trouble hearing my way through a new tune unless it's very simple.

 

[dodgy_ian]

If you do this then you force yourself to use your ears rather than your eyes. This is the way it should be.....rather than eyes coming first in the process. I'm in exactly the same position as you right now and it's a scary one... It's a lifetimes worth of work to be able to really 'hear' all of these different changes but you gotta start somewhere...

I think a lot of people have been shortchanged if you will by Real Books because they encourage reliance on the dots / chords rather than the ears. I know I've certainly fallen into this trap.

Perhaps learning a little piano would really help to, to hear progressions (and understand them) and also figure out a few simple substitutions etc.

Good luck. Perhaps you could let us know how you get on?

 

[TomSauter]

Nobody should expect you to hear your way through Bolivia or Dolphin Dance, usually when someone says "you'll hear it" the tune is a standard or some other simple tune.

As for sounding 'blocky', you probably just need to learn all the variations and substitutions that you can do over turnarounds and other common progressions. There's way too many for me to list here, but if you learn the melodies to standards and analyze how they fit over the chords, you'll start to recognize what substitutions are going on when people solo.

Here's one example--a regular turnaround in C is:

Cmaj|A7|Dmin|G7

If you hear the notes B or D (or both) where the A7 is, then most of the time the chord is really Eb diminished. It could also be Amin or another bar of Cmaj, but it's almost definitely not A7. 'The Song is You' does this, along with a million other tunes, Someday My Prince, Basin Street Blues, etc.

You also might hear an Ab note on the A7 chord, that implies an Ebmin. This happens in 'If You Could See Me Now', 'Four', 'East of the Sun', and tons of others.

Once you can recognize those sounds and lots of other ones, then it makes hearing your way through tunes waaaay easier. The toughest part for me is hearing key changes, and lots of times there are some unexpected chords in otherwise normal tunes

 

[Jostein]

I have tried both guitar and bass and it's a lot easier to fake it on guitar. On guitar you can skip a few bars if you like and you can sneak into chord if you are not sure. And if something's wrong it might not sound that bad anyway. If you do that on bass, the whole song easily falls apart.

But there's a lot of good advice in the other replies. And you will get better with experience.

 

[Jojabeau]

Transcribe basslines. Hell Ron Carter plays on the Abersold "Bird" CD and you can isolate the track. I bet you are useing 'common' arps and always starting on the root, moving the chord fingering to a new location. Try playing more like an upright player moveing up and down on a single string rather than playing like a guitarist moving from string to string.

 

[emilio g]

In response to the last comment, I am an upright player, and I transcribe basslines as much as possible. If you want to see what my playing is like, see www.youtube.com/emilioguarino There are a couple videos where you can get an idea of where my playing is. I always welcome constructive criticism!

Thus far, the best advice I've got was to focus on practicing stock harmonic devices in 12 keys. Like ii-v's descending chromatically, in whole steps, Dominant chords in 4ths (like in Yesterdays), ii-v's to varying scale degrees (the IV, bV, relative minor), Giant Steps/Coundown Subs etc.

 

[Intenzity]

The old story goes that someone once asked Miles Davis how they could be a better trumpet player and he said "Play piano".

You want to hear harmony..get a cheesy keyboard and learn how to voice chords.

I am by no means a piano player, but playing simple ii-v's helps my ear (and boy does it need help).

 

[Jazzdogg]

I'll go out on a limb and say that there isn't one method or technique that works for everybody. No matter what works for the TBers who've replied, the OP's immediate task IMO is to leave his comfort zone, abandon his training wheels, and confront his fears and areas of discomfort until he's able to say, as clearly as possible, what works for him and what doesn't. If we stay in our comfort zone and limit ourselves to doing what we're good at, and what we're comfortable with, how can we expect to grow?

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Emilio, there is no quick and easy. It is a lot of ear training and experience. I don't think either of the tunes mentioned are easy to hear your way through, but they're not impossible (try RIO or PUNJAB). If you can start with root movement, you can add color as you hear it. But you've seen my posts on ear training and learning tunes; it's a lot of work. But that's where you have to be, if you really want to play this music with some depth.
Don't wait till your on the stand to try this stuff, when you're at sessions get the piano player or guitar player to take you through without telling you the changes. When you get stuck, cycle that part (keep playing the 4 or 8 bar phrase over and over again) try to hear the root movement. Take the Aebersold records and play along without the sheet music. If you don't hear what's going on in a section STOP PLAYING. Don't create more havoc for yourself by clouding what's going on with gibberish. Stop the recording and step back and think for a second - what was the last chord you heard clearly? what is the next chord you hear clearly? what possible paths of resolution do those two chords (and the key centers they were a part of) suggest? Start the record back up and see if that sounds like what's going on.

Rather than practicing what something stock might sound like and hope to Keerist that they play something similar, go deeper. Learn to hear what's actually going on. This isn't something that's going to happen by next week, but once you HAVE it, it's yours forever...

 

[damonsmith]

Ed's post, as always in this subject is great - so yeah, do that! My only 2 cents is that real book does have a place in the real world. It is a quick way to deal with tunes you are not super into, and a lot of people do use it whether we like it or not, so it is just something we need to keep around.
As far as the ear goes, people who can't hear music are not generally interested in music much less making it a career or even serious hobby. It is very often more a matter of trusting your ear and just paying attention to what things sound like and being able to match up those sounds with ideas.
This goes for all types of improvised music and not just jazz.

 

[chris dammann]

the best thing i ever did was give away my real book.

 

[MacheteSteve]

give them to me! pm me

 

[Jazzdogg]

<SNIP> As far as the ear goes, people who can't hear music are not generally interested in music much less making it a career or even serious hobby. <SNIP>

Oh, how I wish this were true! I've worked with musicians too numerous to mention who can sight-read with the best of 'em, but don't have an ear for music. At a session last week, there was a trumpet player who plays in a few big bands around town. He couldn't solo to save his @$$, and has no appreciable ear. But he considers himself a "jazz musician" because be plays in big bands and has compiled a large collection of big band charts, some of which he's transcribed using Finale; thing is, I've heard lots of clams in his transcriptions that he simply doesn't seem to notice. Sadly, he ain't alone.

 

[jazz+bass]

Maybe you don't need to burn your Real Book, but try not to use it. I used to be like you, using the book on every gig. But it was cool because most of the (kids) I played with did the exact same thing. After a while, I realized that I probably knew most of the tunes I needed to play the gigs and stopped bringing the book. It was rough for a while, but my playing and my ear improved. Now I play with more mature musicians and Real Books are nowhere in sight.

Stop using the book as soon as you can, you will learn faster, sound better, remember more songs, have less to load into the gig, and you will even LOOK more professional.

I got a gig about a year ago at a singer's jam session. How did I get the gig? By sitting in and knowing / hearing my way through standard after standard, in any dumb key the singers wanted. They called tunes that I didn't know from the Real Book, but having the book wouldn't of even really helped me because transposing is so much easier when you are using your ears than using your eyes. If I was still playing out of the book when I sat in, there is no way I would've gotten the gig. The tunes that were from the book would've been in awful keys, and the tunes that weren't from the book would require an advanced ear that I wouldn't have if I hadn't played without the book for so long.

That being said, to a certain level player the Real Books are a great learning tool. They let musicians, who wouldn't normally be able to figure all these songs out, play them with some degree of success. They also help you learn how to read a chart, which is a very important skill. But after you can read charts with ease, stop lugging the book around.

So, to sum it up:
Get rid of the book now, it is hindering your progress and the sooner you begin to work on accurately hearing, the better. Unless you are still having trouble reading charts, then maybe keep practicing with the book until you feel comfortable.

 

[fdeck]

Several years ago I realized that I was hauling ten pounds of fake books to every gig, and I simply stopped. At first I was worried that I was going to forget the bridge to Have You Met Miss Jones, or something like that. But playing without the books has helped me a lot.

I have no moral objections to seeing books on stage, and if it's a high profile gig with top players, I would rather read a tune than muff it. And some players are more picky than others. Halfway through the first set of one gig, the bandleader reached into his bag, pulled out a book, and put it in front of me. I got the message.

In my locale, most bandleaders who hire sidemen bring some books of their own as an insurance policy, so I have rarely played a gig with no recourse to a chart.

My best use of fake books has been playing the melodies to train myself on treble clef reading. Also, I personally find it easier to remember the chords to a tune if I also remember the melody.

 

[longfinger]

I

I asked him how to fix this and he told me he did it by giving away all his fakebooks, then whenever he was at a jam session where he didn't know a tune, trying to hear his way through it.

How do you do this??!! It may seem like a silly question, but I feel like I'm missing something. Its really frustrating when other musicians say, "oh, you'll hear it" because I usually end up being asked to leave shortly after!

A few examples from the last week or two:

When "bolivia" and "dolphin dance" got called at a session, and I was told "you'll hear 'em man". I did my best to play what I remembered from the recordings and listen to the piano player, but when I checked out the changes later on, they weren't anything close to what I thought I heard. Another time, a sax player called "giant steps" (which I know) and took 6 choruses, except he took each chorus up a whole step until he got to the original key. I would not have known if the piano player hadn't told me afterwards (he was a nice guy, the sax player was not).

I've proved to myself I can memorize plenty of music from a book, but I still don't have a good sense of harmony. Does it just kind of happen after a while?

Lot's of good advice from the others...

But i'd like to address the suggestion by your friend. In a defensive manner.

Like Jostein wrote, it's really easier for a guitarist, pianist or horn player to "hear ones' way through a tune" when the BASS PLAYER is laying the changes down for them! The guitarist doesn't even have to do much, lay out, play a bit on later beats other than 1, after the bassists has laid down the changes.

A jazz bassist can't wait till the others play the chord and then join in with a 'response' on beat 2 or 3. It seems clear that a bassist has to know a measure in advance what the next chord is to lay down a good line. Your guitar friend does not NEED to know that. It's easier for him to fake it as the others are not relying on him for harmonic foundation AND rhythmic drive, the kind that comes from being on the beat or a bit ahead of it.

That's what makes it harder for bassists for 'fake it' and hear our way through a tune we don't know at all. By the time we hear it it's already too late to play it. (Unless you can lay out completely for the first chorus, and then go 'Got it' for the second one! Something to strive for Mozart!)

What makes it easier, though is that so many songs have the same essential chord progressions, and 'bass' is far more generic than is 'melody'. So once, we have core standards memorized, and transposed, it's easier to rapidly learn yet another song book standard that's similar to what we already know. As well as get a sense of where the progression is heading before it gets there.

PS. How good is your guitarist friend at 'hearing his way through a tune' he does not know, when he has to play chords 'four on the floor' style, slightly ahead of the beat?

 

[MacheteSteve]

seriously give the books to me. im young and know not to be reliant on them but id like them to widen my jazz repertoire and have never used them before.

you would be assisting this student enormously by send them to me

 

[Phil Smith]

I got to play with a really, really good guitar player today and after a few tunes he asked me how I learn songs. So I told him I'll get a lead sheet and walk basslines, play the melody, move it around the keys, play it on piano, etc.

So he told me that's all well and good, but that my sense of harmony sounded "blocky". Meaning, I tend to play the same turnarounds/chord progressions every chorus.

I asked him how to fix this and he told me he did it by giving away all his fakebooks, then whenever he was at a jam session where he didn't know a tune, trying to hear his way through it.

How do you do this??!! It may seem like a silly question, but I feel like I'm missing something. Its really frustrating when other musicians say, "oh, you'll hear it" because I usually end up being asked to leave shortly after!

A few examples from the last week or two:

When "bolivia" and "dolphin dance" got called at a session, and I was told "you'll hear 'em man". I did my best to play what I remembered from the recordings and listen to the piano player, but when I checked out the changes later on, they weren't anything close to what I thought I heard. Another time, a sax player called "giant steps" (which I know) and took 6 choruses, except he took each chorus up a whole step until he got to the original key. I would not have known if the piano player hadn't told me afterwards (he was a nice guy, the sax player was not).

I've proved to myself I can memorize plenty of music from a book, but I still don't have a good sense of harmony. Does it just kind of happen after a while?

I feel your pain emilio g, however here are my thoughts take them for what they are worth...

Some times people posture because it makes them feel bigger while they try to make you feel smaller. I've experienced a number of musicians who know lots of tunes and you discover that this is the basis of their "hearing" when they "disappear" on tunes they don't know, something you the bassist can't do.

Some Sax players put a great deal of time into "Giant Steps" and I guarantee you if you put the same amount of time into "Giant Steps" as the Sax player and had the prior knowledge that the piano player had you would have heard what they were doing.

Some changes are easier to recognize than others i.e. the blues, rhythm changes, two and three chord vamps, others are less recognizable because they're combinations of stuff that you've heard but not in the same order that you're used to hearing them.

Lastly, people like playing tunes that they know and that they know they will sound good on and those are the tunes that they call. Pulled outside of their element these same players won't sound so good if say for example you called a reggae tune or a "real" latin tune.

One still has to work on improving their ability to recognize what they hear. Personally I have the ability to whistle just about anything that I hear and I'm struggling with how to transfer that ability to my fingers...work is never done.