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Double Bass Is it time to burn my Real Book?

#21
I think Phil brings up some really good points and I get the impression it is all about understanding the "scene" you are working in.

So this thread is interesting for me, as I have never seen people using a Real Book at a "gig" as such...:confused:

However, I have been to many jams/workshops where people have pulled out Real Books as a way to get started on playing together.

If I saw a Jazz pro at my local Jazz club using a Real Book, it would be like heresy - I'm sure people would walk out or the world would end or something along those lines..:p

But on many gigs the tunes are all originals or obscure arrangments and the players are using lead sheets throughout.

I can see how Real Books can be a part of your education and a tool for people to jam who don't know each other and as Ed has said - the process of education is long and deep....? Some people might want to throw themselves stright in and others who can't devote so much time might stick with the books for longer ....?
 
#22
Yeah, I kind of see the real books as a tool rather than a crutch. They're there to get you started. Most jazz melodies are relatively simple to memorize, and the chord changes aren't super-crazy so it's easy to think "Bb to Eb to Bb to F" or I iv I V. My teacher has me going through scales and modes and is encouraging me to experiment with them, to see and feel where notes are on the fingerboard versus always putting 1 note in 1 spot (like A is easily in 4 locations depending on what you're trying to do). It's helping me a great deal in just understanding the instrument more, and may be something you're already past anyway.

I'd also like to emphasize what was said before about how while your guitar friend's heart may be in the right spot, you're playing different instruments. My guitar friend goes on and on about chords, loves the things, strums his guitar like mad. The idea of breaking chords down and playing individual notes, which is pretty standard for bass, is a foreign idea to him. And since he focuses on rhythm guitar, drum patterns are also a foreign idea to him. He doesn't play jazz, mind, but he tends to get "locked in" when presented with a bassline or drum pattern, and likewise doesn't tend to be led when they change up on him.

I think you're approaching your dilemma as "how do I follow the guitar player's advice and become more like him?" The answer to that, straight up, is "learn guitar." However, I'd argue that your question is wrong. Take the guitar player's advice and then go ask a drummer how they do changes, both in tempo and in parts of the song.

It's rather unfortunate that, due to the size and configuration of bass and drums, they're typically in the back, and often thought of as "backup instruments" rather than "leader" instruments. But if the drummer is always a measure late because he's listening for the changes to happen, it's gonna wreck a song. Same for bass, in my opinion, which is why it's so common to hear that the bass is sort of the "bridge" between the drums and the melody.

I don't think that your repeats are necessarily a bad thing; repetition in a bassline is the basis for setting down a good groove, and going all over the place, while common in more experimental work, isn't necessarily what you're shooting for. I wonder if, in the case of the guitar player, you felt overwhelmed so you stuck with some "known" progressions and patterns, rather than branching out like you might with a more familiar musician?

When I first saw your video I thought "that right hand doesn't look right, what's he gonna do now," but you certainly seemed to play competently. Maybe a better question is "do you always play a song the same way? Do you have patterns that you tend to fall into when playing certain chords?" Having a real book won't affect that, since when it comes to chord changes the books only give you a basic map; they don't fill in the bassline.
 
#23
emilio g said:
To clarify, my issue is more of an ear training problem. Transcribing seems to be teaching me how to play asymmetrical phrases and cross bar lines pretty freely.

But I don't instinctively add in substitutions, and when other people do, I usually don't know what they are. Sure, I can benefit from working out some extra ii-V's sequences but that's not where my question is.

I still have trouble hearing my way through a new tune unless it's very simple.
Click to expand...

Do you have any software like Transcribe! ? When i'm learning a new tune I get the aebersole version (if there is one), loop a chorus with the piano isolated and go from there. you can even slow down and loop a specific chord and figure the voicings out etc. Once your ear learns the standard progressions non-standard changes start to pop out at you. Not everyone agree's with me, but I think never looking at the changes is the best way to get your ear happening.
 
#24
Yo, Emilio! This is Bob from Rutgers (called you recently about SWEENEY at the PAC)

GREAT discussion, man, thank you for posting this. I'm in the same boat except until I read what you're talking about here I only had the vague realization that I can't fake my way through standards as well as I thought! ie, sax players giving me dirty looks when I don't know the tune... Thanks for articulating this obstacle.

As others have said, you definitely ought to trust your ears and keep in mind that you can't predict the future - some changes are crazy - no matter how many turnarounds you practice, you're probably not going to get a tune like "Bolivia" on the first chorus. It seems like this particular issue is what separates the old pro jazz guys from the young chart-shuffling amateurs like me.

Have you seen the website Invalid Link Removed They have this thing where you can loop a MIDI file of just piano chords for lots of tunes. It helps me figure out how to hear "where a tune is going" for what it's worth.

By the way, where do you play?
 
#25
Hah hey Bob! I play wherever I can. I'm going to be at the bayou cafe in freehold this saturday and at the end of the month, and I'll be doing some stuff at Blend in Ridgewood during the first week of September.


Anyway, this thread is loaded with great advice that I'll be coming back to, especially concerning some of the psychology involved with jam sessions. I never thought to practice hearing the changes with Transcribe! and my Aebersolds. Thank you so much!
 
#26
appler said:
Have you seen the website Invalid Link Removed They have this thing where you can loop a MIDI file of just piano chords for lots of tunes. It helps me figure out how to hear "where a tune is going" for what it's worth.
Click to expand...

Invalid Link Removed, also does the same thing, has about 800 tunes and let's you select any key you want to practice along with.
 
#27
Try learning tunes away from your bass. This can be done any time, anywhere. Try to hear a line in your head to tunes in different keys and start off with easier progressions. Practice playing through tunes that you know, in your head, in different keys.

Anyone who tells you that you will "hear" bolivia or dolphin dance is being an A** hole.

Practice singing and hearing *ALL* your intervals. Root movement is the Bread and Butter in hearing tunes.
 
#29
So after about a combined total of 2 hours of trying to hear the changes on simple tunes using only my ears, aebersolds and CD collection, three things have revealed themselves to me:

1. My ears really aren't all that horrible, I just don't trust them yet! Over and over, I would hear a change, think its something, then change my mind only to discover my initial instinct was correct.

2. Of the mistakes I have been making, some of them were so easy it's silly. They were all chord progressions I've heard before, but I had been reading them more than listening to them. That's where the fakebook was holding me back.

3. After I finished listening to the tune (you and the night and the music) and was hearing everything correctly, hearing it (and playing it) in a different key is so much easier its ridiculous. I was amazed at what a few minutes of listening intensely can do.
 
#30
emilio g said:
2. Of the mistakes I have been making, some of them were so easy it's silly. They were all chord progressions I've heard before, but I had been reading them more than listening to them. That's where the fakebook was holding me back.
Click to expand...

The fakebook isn't holding you back, you're holding you back, your ears should still be on board even when you're reading a chart cuz the chart isn't always correct or hip.
 
#31
Phil Smith said:
The fakebook isn't holding you back, you're holding you back, your ears should still be on board even when you're reading a chart cuz the chart isn't always correct or hip.
Click to expand...


That's true - I was playing a tune from a lead sheet and the last few bars didn't look right, but I managed to play a turnaround that worked with the melody.

The thing was I first played it when the group was without a piano or guitar - just horns bass and drums. Then when we played it with a guitarist, it just went horribly awry and our guitarist kept saying the chords were wrong....:p
 
#32
Newbie here - I'm playing from fake chord sheet music - same sheet music the rhythm guitar and vocalist are using and glad to hear that having the book on a gig is acceptable. In my neck of the woods (East Texas & Country music) I can not recall ever seeing an electric bass play from a gig book. All the lead guitars and bassists I'm around play by ear.

I'm moving over from rhythm guitar, and like others have mentioned, jamming a progression on the acoustic is not a problem, however on the bass - to keep all the balls in the air - I have to work from a gig book right now -- and am relieved to know others do play this way. I know the ultimate goal is to not use the book but again am relieved to know others do.
 
#33
Before the hour drive to my gig last night, I loaded up my CD changer with fairly straight ahead standards CDs and Aebersolds and sang along to the melodies and bass lines.

And I didn't use a fakebook on the gig! I told the piano player that I'm trying to get better at learning changes by ear and she was really supportive. If I sounded unsure about the changes, she would usually play roots the next chorus to help me out.

And most of my friends are like that too! When I would jam with my friends and someone called a tune I didn't know, I'd either read it, or ask to play something else. But the last couple days I've found that if I ask them to take me through the changes slowly, they're really happy to do it.
 
#35
emilio g said:
Before the hour drive to my gig last night, I loaded up my CD changer with fairly straight ahead standards CDs and Aebersolds and sang along to the melodies and bass lines.

And I didn't use a fakebook on the gig! I told the piano player that I'm trying to get better at learning changes by ear and she was really supportive. If I sounded unsure about the changes, she would usually play roots the next chorus to help me out.

And most of my friends are like that too! When I would jam with my friends and someone called a tune I didn't know, I'd either read it, or ask to play something else. But the last couple days I've found that if I ask them to take me through the changes slowly, they're really happy to do it.
Click to expand...

Awesome!

the more you learn tunes like this, the faster you get at it. its not about remember s***, its about hearing.
 
#36
I think ear training is a good one, but I also would say learn as much harmony as you possibly can. Western music is all about tension and resolution, meaning everything basically goes from the V to the I. Jazz musicians do that in very fancy ways, so if you learn every possible way to go from the V chord to the I chord, you are in business. In fact you don't have to know any tunes. the goal is, if a piano player play one chorus by himself, you should be able to join him on the second chorus, or at least be pretty close to knowing all the changes. Of course this is easy with standard jazz tunes (32 bar form, AABA, 4 extension on last A, etc.) Once you got that down, it becomes easier to memorize and/or learn some of the more challenging tunes, (odd number of bars, and/or modal harmonic direction, etc.) I work with a lot of people all the time, and I can memorize even some real challenging tunes, forms, and even arrangements. In fact I've been asked to talk about it in a few Universities. I think it's all about tension and resolution, and figuring out the length of each phrase! this one is real important, and that is why people tend to get lost. each melody, each chord progression has a length and once you figure that out it becomes a lot easier. I will dare to say, that in a way once you can "feel" the push and pull of the harmonic movement it pretty much becomes like Folk music! Something that I've done a lot about 20 years ago was to break down scores of classical music and figure out what a particular composer was "thinking" in terms of harmonic and melodic direction. It's fascinating to break down, Bach, Bethoven, Domenico Scarlatti, Mahler, etc. and compare it with the harmony of for instance, Tom Jobim, Chick Corea, Hermeto Paschoal, Ivan Lins, Duke Ellington, Monk Etc. it's a lot of fun, and makes you realize that its' really not that hard.
We only have twelve notes!!!
 
#37
Guess I should put my 2 cents in:

Been playing for 20 years, I do 100-200 dates a year, and I always bring my Real Books in a nifty little Blues Brothers briefcase. I have all 3 of the "Illegal" books, treble clef.

From Thanksgiving - NYE, I add a Christmas Fake Book to the pile.

(I also used to carry a "cheese book" from my cruise ship days, with stuff like "Arividerchi Roma", Polkas, Vienna Waltzes - stuff I'd never play if I wasn't getting paid for it. Thank God I don't need that much anymore.)

Do I need to bust out my books for "Take The A Train", rhythm changes, or any of the standard repotoire? No.

But for obscure tunes, things I haven't played in a long time, forgotten bridges, songs that sound very similar, brain farts, and wacky singer transpositions, they are invaluable - not to mention having a free copy for the poor soul who doesn't know the next tune.

It's certainly preferable to fumbling around listening for the roots in the next tune while trying to remember to transpose up a minor third at the same time - seeing as we can't just hit a bunch of notes in the key and make it sound like we know what we're doing, like other musicians do.


As others have said though, it's a reference for me, not a roadmap. I can quickly suss out the progressions, key areas, form, etc. If a chord guy wants to play Bbmaj instead of Gmin, I can hear that too. And I can hear the many mistakes in the books and correct on the fly.


Real Books are just a good "Swiss Army Knife" to have on hand. And being able to spontaneously play some Swallow/Burton thing like "Sweet Henry" or "Como En Vietnam" on a gig is worth the price of the book to me.
 
#38
Actually, I did notice while back that a REALLY well known trombone player had a pocket size real book sticking out of his case.

And, a while back I was actually on a gig with a singer who carried around a fleet of books with her. About half way through, someone who had been drinking too much started requesting a lot of corny/obscure songs, and giving the band a $20 tip every time we played one.


But for the sake of learning to make music, I'm still leaving the book home for a while!
 
#39
Is a tool for learning chord progressions and the relationship between melody and chords, and chord substitutions. Always, always, learn the melody as well as the chords. Other posters are correct in that the bassist is the one who is actually laying down the chord structure. Keep the RB, until you can compose your own melodies to other tunes' chord progressions.

And I can't count the number of times I have been berated for playing the "wrong" chords, only to find out there are several accepted chord progressions for a tune. A 2-5-1 is not engraved in stone.. Or getting barked at for over substituting- there are still those players that MUST have the chord's root on the one.

But Miles' comment about playing piano is true- as a primarily monophonic instrument player, you need to be able to hear and understand the inversions and voicings of the chords.
 
#40
azureblue said:
And I can't count the number of times I have been berated for playing the "wrong" chords, only to find out there are several accepted chord progressions for a tune. A 2-5-1 is not engraved in stone.. Or getting barked at for over substituting- there are still those players that MUST have the chord's root on the one.
Click to expand...

It's not about "accepted chord progressions", it's about getting your head out of the book and LISTENING to what everybody else is playing. Likewise it's not about "over substituting" it's about making a decision about what to play that is not based on the musical situation you are in.
Don't play with the band in your head, play with the one that's on the stand with you. We make music together.
 

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