is metronome really helpfull?

[Jeff Bonny]

Just tonight I auditioned for a Cuban Timba band. I played with a pianist and percussionist, plus a metronome about half the time. The click definitely showed me when I was getting off time--and proved that the pianist was continually rushing montunos.

I think that Jeff believes that metronomic time is over-valued by our modern musical culture. How long has the metronome been in existence compared to how long we humans have been making music? Are all those thousands of generations of pre-metronome musicians substantially inferior to those of us reared from birth with click?

Those of you who are most vehemently and violently opposed to Berlin's ideas may be missing a very fundamental statement about music and time.

 

[wulf]

How long has the metronome been in existence compared to how long we humans have been making music?

Longer than the bass guitar and probably longer than the concept of "the rhythm section".


Wulf

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I think that Jeff believes that metronomic time is over-valued by our modern musical culture. How long has the metronome been in existence compared to how long we humans have been making music? Are all those thousands of generations of pre-metronome musicians substantially inferior to those of us reared from birth with click?

That's an excellent point. However, if that's really the crux of the point, why can't that be typed over the internet? You just did it in less than a paragraph, and made a pretty eloquent job of it, too. If that's the main part of Jeff's point, I don't think anyone would argue with that.*









*although Ed would probably argue that for thousands of years, nobody wore deodorant either, and that in his opinion, the world is a much better place for its invention...

 

[NuNo]

Jeff may be a great teacher for a great many musical concepts, however, telling people that metronomes cannot help them improve their time is completely false and irresponsible. Many of us have already proven this to ourselves and have encouraged others to do the same.


How can you be so sure????
should we believe you instead?


Remember, I was a huge JB fan for over 15 years before I heard what he had to say here. This is not personal. This is about making sure that people do not make the mistake of ignoring metronomes because Jeff told them to.


Whats is your roll in here??? again you(egocentric speaking)


Let's just let this one go. It's obvious that Jeff is never going to tell us what his proof entails and not even a main propronent of his will tell us so why go on?


my advice is ,and you need to do this: go to a clinic,dont be shy,he wont do no harm to you,just good things!!!

 

[Brad Johnson]

Jeff may be a great teacher for a great many musical concepts, however, telling people that metronomes cannot help them improve their time is completely false and irresponsible. Many of us have already proven this to ourselves and have encouraged others to do the same.


How can you be so sure????
should we believe you instead?


Remember, I was a huge JB fan for over 15 years before I heard what he had to say here. This is not personal. This is about making sure that people do not make the mistake of ignoring metronomes because Jeff told them to.


Whats is your roll in here??? again you(egocentric speaking)


Let's just let this one go. It's obvious that Jeff is never going to tell us what his proof entails and not even a main propronent of his will tell us so why go on?


my advice is ,and you need to do this: go to a clinic,dont be shy,he wont do no harm to you,just good things!!!

And if you can't get to a clinic, then what?

 

[Dave Grossman]

I think that Jeff believes that metronomic time is over-valued by our modern musical culture. How long has the metronome been in existence compared to how long we humans have been making music? Are all those thousands of generations of pre-metronome musicians substantially inferior to those of us reared from birth with click?

Those of you who are most vehemently and violently opposed to Berlin's ideas may be missing a very fundamental statement about music and time.

Hmm, I wonder why we don't hear much 16th century Funk or Medieval Techno? Get the point? Music has changed in those thousands of generations. There exists styles of music that benefit greatly from metronomic time. Ever hear the phrase "everything is on the one"? That "one" has to be right and tight or else you lose the funkyness. And what if Techno had tempo changes or timing anomolies at the whim of the composer? You'd have people out on the dance floor breaking limbs trying to keep with the music. Not a pretty sight.

There is plenty of music that shouldn't be in perfect metronome time. In fact, most of the music I play is in free time from my Bach works to my improv stuff. However, I know that the time I have spent playing with a metronome has only improved my sense of time giving me the tools I need to put the notes exactly where I want them and be less influenced on conditions that might change my sense of time.

None of this does anything to detract from the fact that metronomes will help improve a persons sense of time so that not only can they play better with a constant time but they should also be better at all issues that involve timing. Time is relative. We sense time speeding up and slowing down depending on numerous factors. Practicing with a good time source will help train your brain to sense time in more absolute terms. At least, that's my theory.

Studio bassists will inevitably have to play with a click track at some point. If they are unable to play with a click because they never practiced with one because they believe that time is all internal and a "feel" thing, they will lose that gig.

- Dave

 

[Ed Fuqua]

I think that Jeff believes that metronomic time is over-valued by our modern musical culture. How long has the metronome been in existence compared to how long we humans have been making music? Are all those thousands of generations of pre-metronome musicians substantially inferior to those of us reared from birth with click?

Those of you who are most vehemently and violently opposed to Berlin's ideas may be missing a very fundamental statement about music and time.

OK, metronomic time is over valued by modern musical culture. Whoever they are (name 3). What about me, an itinerant jazz bassist who isn't striving for metronomic time (which I can only take to mean that you never go off-click whether it's on or not), just a steady time feel. That is stable, reliable and visceral? My experience is only my experience, but it IS my experience. And that is fairly clearly related here (in my opinion, if anyone isn't clear on it, let me know and I'll try to hit it form a different angle). Jeff, when you use words like "substantially inferior" it seems like you are hearing this as some sort of moral judgement. I'm not sure where that comes from. Using a nome doesn't make me a better person, it has just made my time feel steadier, deeper.

A lot of indigenous music, like much classical music, the time is not constant. It moves at the whim of the ensemble or of the composer or both. Nobody is saying that music that doesn't adhere to that aesthetic is intrinsically MORE or LESS worthwhile. And that doesn't seem to be what Jeff is saying (at least as far as I can tell from exchanging posts when he was here, reading what has been quoted from other articles and interviews and through people acting as his erstwhile proxy)
DON'T USE A NOME BECAUSE IT'S OK IF MUSIC MOVES AROUND IN A FLEXIBLE TIME LINE
I haven't heard or read that, what I have heard is
1. I can teach people to have time that DOESN'T move around without using a metronome.
2. No one can learn to have time that doesn't move around by using a metronome.

I'm sceptical of the first statement, but certainly willing to hear more.
I disagree fundamentally with the second because I have done it. And all you need to disprove a theorem is to have ONE CASE in which the hypothesis does not hold. That would be me. At least.

As I said, I'm sceptical of the first statement. And it doesn't do Jeff any favors to make such a bold statement and then follow it with others (in support) that are just plain wrong (ie the whole "jazz players didn't...", there is too much evidence to the contrary- in writing, in audio and video interviews and in such personal mementos as Clifford Brown's personal practice tapes. For Brownie's birthday 6 or 7 years ago, Phil Schaap played an excerpt of a practice tape {Brownie recorded almost all of his practice sessions}. The session lasted about 7 hours and much of it was Brownie improvising against the click of a metronome.)


NUNO - great, Jeff shut an audience up. BY DOING WHAT? That always seems to be the sticking point. My supposition is that he did one of two things
1. put the nome on and had everybody clap along. Then turn the nome off and have everybody clap and when evrybody more or less claps in time together says "See, you don't need a metronome."

2. have some poor sucker who says that he practices with a nome come up and clap along with the nome. Then he'll do soemthing like turn the sound off and have them keep on clapping and when they get off the click, say "See, practicing with a nome does nothing for your time."

So NUNO, you were there. Describe what happened.

 

[Dave Grossman]

How can you be so sure????

Because I have proven it to myself. I don't need to look any farther than that.

should we believe you instead?

No, believe your own ears. That's why I keep telling people to prove it for themselves. If they don't find an improvement in their time, the worst that has happened is that they've wasted some money on a metronome.

Whats is your roll in here??? again you(egocentric speaking)

To share my experiences to help people improve themselves as a bass player and to gather other people's experiences to help improve myself as a bass player. I think that's why most of us are here, right? To improve ourselves and/or help improve others. If that means contradicting someone because I think they're wrong then that's what I'll do. To sit back and say nothing when I see someone spreading false information feels just wrong to me. Especially when it is something that is so obviously and provably wrong.

Again, don't believe me. Either prove it or disprove it for yourself. It's not that hard.

- Dave

 

[NJL]

after talk with Jeff today,here it goes;

I appreciate all your comments about the metronome and would like to put this into the soup. I can proove inside of 10 minutes the misguided approach to using a click believing that it will give you good time. Maybe we can have this opportunity at some clinic some time.

Best,

Jeff

sounds like marketing for his clinic. how sad

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I don't know how many people responding to the metronome subject have everbeen to a clinic given by Jeff. Discussing this topic on the internet isn't
going to prove anything except that everyone has an opinion. So does Jeff,but I saw him on several occasions prove conclusively his points.

Despite what some people might think (George Bush?) - the vast majority of the world's popuation does not live in America and is never likely to visit, just for a JB clinic!! So - has he abandoned us to our ignorance - c'mon - how about a video? A clue?

He has consistently proved his points through action, not just discussion,which is why I prefer not to discuss how he demonstrated this at the clinics
that I saw.

Sorry - no matter how you try to sell it this just sounds like a cop-out - if it was so amazing then why don't you want to share it, I know I would if I had a really amazing revelation?

The only reason I can think is that you are unsure how convincing it really was and/or that it would be a a big anti-climax

It just seems to me that some participants in this conversation
will just try and pull my comments apart because they are against Jeff's views. I believe that some on this forum aren't really interested in the truth, just to attack one of the greatest bass players who ever lived because he says what he thinks and can back it up.

Well, as has been said - I think everybody (apart from you) can see that this is exactly the opposite of what is going on - nobody has "dissed" Jeff in this thread and everybody has been discussing the use of a metronome specifically, with the stated aim of finding the 'truth' (if you like) - or as I would say, the best way to practice.

Incidently, when he played his bass at the clinics, people were dead quiet as well. He floored them with his bass playing. He's the greatest bass player in the country
right now.

I repeat; the clinics that I attended left the audience speechless. No one there could contradict his opinions and he asked the audience several times if they found any flaws in his thinking and his demonstratrion. His bass playing was other-worldly, utterly without equal. No one ANYWHERE plays like this guy.

Well, I m sorry but as we are talking about the truth - this just sounds incredibly naive and the words of somebody who hasn't seen or listened to enough music - I'm not disrespecting you - hey we all started out naive - but there are many, many great musicians out there who can floor an audience - and not just bass players - I think your comments just betray the fact that you need to find out about a few more.

So - Jeff is obviously a good player - but has he made the impact of a Miles,Coltrane,Monk,Mingus - I'm sure he would be the first to say no - I'm sure he would be the first to recognise that there are hundreds of great bass players out there who are doing great stuff that is on the same level as him or better - like Dave Holland, John Patitucci - hey I'm sure
Wayne could have chosen whichever bass player he wanted...?... and I could go on to name dozens of bass players you probably haven't heard of - which is exactly the point, I would suggest!

If you disagree with Jeff, visit a clinic, or better yet, attend one of his
one week intensives at The Players School of Music. He has always been
friendly and open with everyone, and WELCOMES different opinions.

Er yeah - just sounds like Marketing - and for those of us in Europe,Australia,Africa etc. - what are we supposed to do....

 

[bassbloke]

I live in Scotland. The chance of me ever being within several hundred miles of one of Jeff's clinics is small. Hundreds of thousands if not millions of musicians are in a similar position. If Jeff is right, many, many thousands of hours are being wasted by those who wrongly believe they can improve their time using a metronome. Doesn't he have some responsibility to these people beyond saying "come to one of my clinics, pay the fee, and I'll prove it"?. Frankly, this makes him sound like one of those guys who tell you if you give them a stack of money they will give you perfect pitch. Not to mention snake oil. It is undignified and does nothing but harm to the reputation of a man no-one disputes is a very fine musician, and in my opinion a readable and interesting columnist.

<i>I believe that some on this forum aren't really interested in the truth, just to attack one of the greatest bass players who ever lived because he says what he thinks and can back it up.</i>

Now that is just silly. You honestly think people are thinking here's one of the greatest bass players who ever lived, who says what he thinks and can back it up, let's attack him? People are disagreeing him because the discussion so far goes:

JB (through spokesperson): Something you profoundly believe is utterly wrong.

Bass community: We are not convinced, this contradicts our own experience

JB (through spokesperson): I can prove it.

Bass community: OK, go ahead, we are interested.

JB (through spokesperson): Shan't!!

Bass community: Go on, please!! Pretty please?

JB (through spokesperson): Shan't!!!

Bass community: OK we will carry on believing what our experience tells us.

JB (through spokesperson): Bwahahaha!!! You fools!! You question the word of the mighty Kahn!! (Ok, ok he didn't say that, but ............)

 

[romac]

I live in Scotland. The chance of me ever being within several hundred miles of one of Jeff's clinics is small. Hundreds of thousands if not millions of musicians are in a similar position.

Exactly. I live in the Middle East. If Jeff Berlin is like the majority of Americans that I have met (no offence to the decent minority) he'd rather be circumsized by a chain saw than come here


So what are we supposed to do????? He has a video out, does he "prove" it there??? If not, why not???/ Nuno why can't you even give us a clue. It's like your treating it like some sort of conspiracy. Why can't someone tell us, as we unable to get to a clinic??? I'd be happy to buy a $15 video if he can just give us a clue. What is he so afraid about??? He's acting like a 6 year old IMO, "I know something you don't know." and all that.....

 

[NuNo]

hello everybody,

i cant say anything....how can i prove it to ppl that are not willing to accept???
iam NAIVE,i dont know MUSIC as some of gurus in this forum.
if i say its red you probably will say that is red brownish
this is a forum to share opinions,and opinions are relative ALWAYS will be!!!
its easy to speak by a keyboard ,i really would like to see some of this guys FACE TO FACE!!!them to prove their points!!
pls if some one here gives clinics(apart from Michael and Steve),just tell me and maybe ill go in the next one!and of course want to speak with that person!

Romac: pls if you dont have the humanaty...just dont say nothing!!!

and dont forget i am NAIVE!!!

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

hello everybody,

i cant say anything....how can i prove it to ppl that are not willing to accept???
iam NAIVE,i dont know MUSIC as some of gurus in this forum.
if i say its red you probably will say that is red brownish
this is a forum to share opinions,and opinions are relative ALWAYS will be!!!
its easy to speak by a keyboard ,i really would like to see some of this guys FACE TO FACE!!!them to prove their points!!
pls if some one here gives clinics(apart from Michael and Steve),just tell me and maybe ill go in the next one!and of course want to speak with that person!

Romac: pls if you dont have the humanaty...just dont say nothing!!!

and dont forget i am NAIVE!!!

Here's the bottom line: Conventional wisdom (not to mention common sense) states that a metronome is a device that is useful as a tool which can be used by musicians to help them improve their sense of time - indeed, the device was created and designed for this very purpose. There is some discussion about whether the device serves that purpose or not. On the one hand, most professional music educators on the planet say, "yes, a metronome is a useful tool that can, when used properly, help a musician improve his or her time". On the other, Jeff Berlin and NuNo, say "No, a metronome is not a useful tool to help musicians improve their time. We know why, but we won't tell you unless you fly ______ miles so we can tell you in person, presumably at a clinic which costs money to attend even beyond travel expenses".

As much as you may like to feel that you are being persecuted, you are not. Your opinion is being challenged, that's all. And until you provide some evidence to back up your opinion, it will continue to be challenged by those who feel that your opinion is not only wrong, but potentially injurious to young musicians who may read it and take the wrong path, thus costing them to waste precious time following the wrong path.

Again, the bottom line: Since you are in the minority choosing to contradict conventional wisdom, the burden of proof is on you. And I say that with the utmost respect, and as sincere a smile as possible.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

hello everybody,

i cant say anything....how can i prove it to ppl that are not willing to accept???

A few reasoned arguments would help - or why not just describe exactly what Jeff did when you saw him - that would be a good start - I'd be interested to hear a verbatim account - seriously!!

its easy to speak by a keyboard ,i really would like to see some of this guys FACE TO FACE!!!them to prove their points!!

I would be happy to speak to you face to face and talk about music- I've met loads of TB'ers in the flesh. Spent a whole week with Howard K and about 120 other musicians in July and I met up with 'ceeprm' yesterday at the Bass Centre in London.

pls if some one here gives clinics(apart from Michael and Steve),just tell me and maybe ill go in the next one!and of course want to speak with that person!

Several of us TB'ers have been along to Steve and Michael's clinics and thoroughly enjoyed the experience - if Jeff does a clinic in the London area, I will be there - no doubt - the thing is, what to do in the meantime....?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

its easy to speak by a keyboard ,i really would like to see some of this guys FACE TO FACE!!!them to prove their points!!
pls if some one here gives clinics(apart from Michael and Steve),just tell me and maybe ill go in the next one!and of course want to speak with that person!

I teach music theory, jazz piano, and jazz bass at the University of Louisville. We have a Jazz Area meeting every Friday morning in room 248. Stop by any time, and I'll be happy to give a demonstration with our jazz students here to support my point. Just PM me if you need directions.

 

[romac]

Romac: pls if you dont have the humanaty...just dont say nothing!!!

Sorry but I'd just like to know what I said wrong? I'm pretty offended by that statement since I only wanted some questions answered and I don't think I lacked "humanity"

 

[Dave Grossman]

On the other, Jeff Berlin and NuNo, say "No, a metronome is not a useful tool to help musicians improve their time. We know why, but we won't tell you unless you fly ______ miles so we can tell you in person, presumably at a clinic which costs money to attend even beyond travel expenses".

I have a feeling that this is all just a ruse to get us to go to a clinic so Jeff can sell us a timeshare.

- Dave

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I have a feeling that this is all just a ruse to get us to go to a clinic so Jeff can sell us a timeshare.

- Dave

Nah - he'd tell us we'd won a free bass then - only collectable at a clinic, where he would explain what we had to do to get it !!

I got a phone call like that a few days ago - and the caller couldn't understand why I was just not interested in her free holiday In florida!!

 

[Dave Grossman]

I think I cited this article 2 years ago when this discussion took place in the JB forum:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2405/is_1_129/ai_86431660

Also, here is an interesting company. Their whole company is based on using metronomes to improve timing.
Invalid Link Removed

and an interesting demo video:
Invalid Link Removed

Seems to me that based on what we've already discussed and these sites, that it's pretty safe to lay this subject to rest.

- Dave