is metronome really helpfull?

[Jeff Bonny]

I remember reading a Berlin column years ago (Guitar Player mag?) where he talked about having "good time" and never speeding up or slowing down being not at all the same thing. I listen to the guy and there is no doubt that his time is great. Rather than dump on him because I have been taught the 'nome is god I feel like I owe it to myself to try and figure out what the heck this madman is on about.

The conclusion I'm coming to is that Jeff Berlin has great internal time and that he thinks that you and I do too and that click is not going to help us find what we've already got. I can hear someone else's time, good or bad, without a metronome why not my own? The older I get I find playing well or not has more to do with listening than with how hip my theory is or how many chops I got. This makin' any sense to anyone?

 

[Ed Fuqua]

My only problem with that assessment is that it directly contradicts my own experience. Not what I want that experience to be, not what I imagine it might be, what my teacher is telling me it should be, MY PERSONL DIRECT EXPERIENCE. I had bad time, I worked on it in some very specific ways and it turned into good time. So (my question goes) if Jeff says that DOES NOT HAPPEN working with a nome, how did it come to pass in my case?
1. PLAYING A LOT - No. I had been playing at a professional level since 1978. With bad time. I had been to Berklee in the early 80s and continued to play with bad time. I moved back to GA and was gigging 5 to 6 nights a week, accompanying visiting artists like Clifford Jordan, Junior Mance, Joe Sample. And still had bad time. I moved to NYC in 87 and was playing with bad time. So I have a good 4 or 5 years of learning to play a little, a good 10 or 12 years of gigging like a fool and about 7 years now of working with my current teacher. After about the first year and a half with Joe, THAT'S when my time/feel started being solid.
2.PLAYING WITH GOOD DRUMMERS - No. By the time I got to NYC I could at least play "in sync" with the other guys in the rhythm section. But I was always leaning on somebody else for the time. If the drummer had good time, hey so did I. But if the drummer rushed, I did. If the drummer dragged, I did. Not because I was going with the flow, but because I wasn't driving the bus, so to speak. I didn't have any standard of what playing with a solid time feel was.

And working with a nome is what got me there.

You say you can hear someone else's "good or bad time" without a metronome and you feel that should enable you to hear your own time. The only way for me to accurately assess that comment is for you and me to sit down and listen to some stuff. My own experience has been that, just like hearing harmony and solo ideas etc., you only hear as much time as you can hear at any given moment. When my own playing would push or drag stuff 4 or 5 clicks in either direction, couldn't hear it when other cats were doing that. My teacher (who was born and raised in NYC) talks about being on the scene and playing and then starting his work with Lennie Tristano. And after about a year, he falls by someplace to hear Blakey and his reaction being "Wow, did he always rush like this?"
The other part of the equation is that difference between objective observer and active participant. Again, my experience has been that if you want to improvise with a solid relaxed time feel, you have to know what that feels like. And you learn what that feels like by practicing improvisation with a rhythmic constant. And you build your own internal stability by having that constant be as "bare bones" as possible, for me that means nome and not drum machine.

I am happy with the methodology that is getting me the results I want. As for your concern that we seem to be missing Jeff's "point", if Jeff had made the claim that he could teach somebody to have a good time feel without using a nome then I'm sure it would have raised some interest. It's his claim that you CANNOT teach yourself to have a good time feel by using a nome, when it is directly contradicted by personal experience that is the source of my continued argument to the contrary.

It's kind of like all those arguments about elitism when it comes to playing double bass. What most folks don't understand is that it is about the SOUND. If i could get THAT SOUND with a kazoo, I'd be playing kazoo. Likewise the nome, if I could have gotten the time feel without using the nome, I would have. It's a little box, it engenders no loyalty, awe, or worship from me. But it happens to work, very effectively. To say otherwise is just misinfomed.

And to try to convince new players not just that they need not use one, but that it is wrong and does not work is a malicious disservice.

 

[Sonorous]

I never needed a metronome.

 

[Dave Grossman]

I never needed a metronome.

If that's true then I envy you. However, for a long time, I didn't think I needed one either. Also, what sounds like perfect time when you're playing can sound quite different when you listen to a recording of yourself.

(addressing everyone, not specific to Sonorous)

I'm sure we've all listened to ourselves play and think that it's in-the-pocket the whole time, then you listen back to it later and wonder how you could have played that badly.

Anyone who thinks they don't need a metronome should try to play and record themselves with one. The click don't lie. While I would agree that bringing some humanity into one's playing by not nailing the beat perfectly every time is desirable in some circumstances, that still does not mean that one should not be able to nail it every time. Do that first, then worry about putting some more humanness into the music.

- Dave

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I bet even Jeff would agree that everyone who actually "has good time", regardless of how they acquired it, would be able to play along with a nome or drum machine without rushing, dragging, or turning the beat around. After that, the player would feel free to personalize the time however they wanted. However, if someone is unable to play in time with a nome....different story altogether.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

Also, what sounds like perfect time when you're playing can sound quite different when you listen to a recording of yourself.

When you listen to a recording of yourself...
When you listen to yourself...
Hmmm.
I've used the metronome a lot over the years and am convinced that it has really helped my time. I'm starting to wonder though whether it has been the strict guidance of the infallible pulse that has been predominantly of use or is it more that it's been just one of many possible devices that has has forced me to listen to what I was playing and confront my shortcomings? If listening is truly the key then it seems reasonable to accept that it might be possible to learn to listen to your own time without the use of a metronome.

I'm still thinking on this but and I would never encourage anyone not to use a 'nome but I'm also not at all prepared to say Jeff Berlin is full of crap and doing anyone a disservice. The idea of exploring different way of learning to listen is interesting and worth serious consideration, no?

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

To be honest, I find these discussions more intellectually stimulating that I do irritating. It is frustrating that we can't get a hint about what the anti-metronome proof is though.

- Dave

I sympathise with your frustration on this, but I think we do have a lot of hints about it, in this thread - so both Steve and Michael in their posts on the first page have given their ideas on this and people have said about how it seems to be as simple as that Jeff believes that having good time is not the same as having metronomic time....?

So I can quite imagine Jeff saying - play along with this and then demonstrating how it's you that sounds bad if you try to play metronomically accurately and correspondingly good, if you don't!

I think by not saying what it is though - he is sort of enticing us to think there is more going on and he does get a lot of publicity for his school/methods/teachings etc. ...?

 

[Dave Grossman]

The idea of exploring different way of learning to listen is interesting and worth serious consideration, no?

Yes, provided that we are told of what this different way of learning is and not just told to throw our metronomes in a box and put it in the attic. Of all this talk of how a metronome cannot or shouldn't be used to try to improve one's time, I have not yet heard of an alternative. Perhaps if I could hear what Jeff has to say about how to develop good time, I might not be so harsh about his anti-metronome stance.

What I do know is that I ignored the advice of my teachers for many years and didn't practice with a metronome. I also paid the price for it. I'm not going to sit by and watch others make the same mistake because they are being told to by someone of authority in the bass world.

- Dave

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

hello,

jeff says this;


"In general bass players today don't solo, can't read music, and have little experience as live players. Most electric players have had little music instruction and know little about generic musical content on their instrument, and certainly off of it. A metronome will never help a player like this to have good time."

This is a very strange couple of sentences to ask to be posted in a bass players forum - what's the point here - trying to be offensive, provocative?

I see great Jazz bass players every week, who can read music and solo exceptionally well - I have literally hundreds of albums where the bass players demonstrate huge knowledge of musical contenxt on their instrument - even electric players!!

OK - so I'm a Jazz fan and not that interested in Korn,Green Day, Blink whatever...etc.

But just to dismiss all bass players in two sentences....are we supposed to take this stuff seriously?


So maybe Jeff's getting cranky about bad reviews...?

Here's UK's JazzWise magazine on "Lumpy Jazz" :

"While his speedy execution and phrasing are both flawless, his tendency towards the clinical and emotionless, makes the notational bombardment sound exhausting ...."

That, from our own "Urb Munki" !!

 

[Dave Grossman]

I sympathise with your frustration on this, but I think we do have a lot of hints about it, in this thread - so both Steve and Michael in their posts on the first page have given their ideas on this and people have said about how it seems to be as simple as that Jeff believes that having good time is not the same as having metronomic time....?

So I can quite imagine Jeff saying - play along with this and then demonstrating how it's you that sounds bad if you try to play metronomically accurately and correspondingly good, if you don't!

I have read a lot of speculation and paraphrasing about what he meant but nothing concrete and nothing straight from him. I want to hear what he has to say about it and since he injects his anti-metronome rhetoric into practically every interview I've seen, I think he owes it to us to explain himself without having to go to a clinic.

I would be the first to agree that "good time" is not necessarily "metronomic time". However, in some situations, you need metronomic time (even Zappa used a click track sometimes). There are plenty of situations where a bassist is supposed to play perfect time. Additionally, having a good sense of perfect time, which most of us seem to agree can be improved by playing with a metronome, can only serve to help playing in any swing/groove situation.

I'm not saying all of this because I worship the metronome and always play with one. My biggest vice is that I don't play with one often enough. I'll tell you this though, after practicing with one for a few days and going into my studio to play, I can tell how much tighter and more confident I am as a player. I can also tell when I haven't practiced with one in a while.

I think people are getting the point here. Pretty much everybody has spoken in favor of metronomes. I think what we need is some more info from Jeff. I would like to know:

Without the benefit of having other people to play with, what is the best way to improve one's sense of time without the use of a metronome?

What is the proof that metronomes cannot help develop "good time"?

What exactly is the definition of "good time"?

If it is a fact that metronomes cannot help develop good time then there should be other music teachers who will agree with this and teach it to their students. Can you name a few teachers who are internet accessible who do not advocate metronomes?

- Dave

 

[bassbloke]

Somewhat tangential to the topic but I'd like to thank Ed and others for owning up to having had bad time in the past. So few bassists are aware/willing to own up to having had bad time. Just review any thread on any bassplayers' forum where someone asks the question "what are your strengths and weaknesses". Practically EVERYONE lists time/groove as a strength. Which always leaves me thinking thoughts like "how do they all know? How come EVERYONE is so confident about this. Are they all right, or are some of them like the bad singers in the Pop Idol auditions, who can't sing in tune but are 100% confident that they are great singers?"

Personally I've had doubts about my time on occasion and my reaction tends to be extremely negative - "well if my time isn't so hot I should stop deluding myself I'm a bassist and find another interest". The message that players playing at a higher level than me have had the same problem and overcome it through hard work is very reassuring.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Anybody who is worth their salt is ALWAYS working on stuff. You talk to Peter Washington (whom I saw in truncated performances last night on the new Jazz at Lincoln Center thang) and he doesn't talk to you about what he has down, he talks about what he works on. Rufus Reid stepped down as head of the Jazz department at William Patterson to devote more time to studying wth his teacher. Etc etc etc.

The strengths you have when you pick up your instrument carry you only so far, the rest of the way is covered by doing the work. That's true for everybody.

The only reason you should not play bass is because you don't want to, don't hear it, hear something else or physically are unable. Don't let assessments based on anything other than your desire to sway you. Be as objective as you can about where you are, what you need to work on, where you want to go, how you sound as you can be and DON'T put too much credence in the subjective analysis of others (good or bad).

It's my fervent belief that we ALL have a sound that is true and personal and our real voice down inside us. And the struggle for a musician is to try to make everything else - what others want us to sound like, what other players we admire sound like, all the little tricks we learn to make it sound like we can play - get quiet enough so that we can hear that voice. And when we can hear it clearly enough, we need to be able to get it up and out into the air without the instrument being an impediment.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Anybody who is worth their salt is ALWAYS working on stuff. You talk to Peter Washington (whom I saw in truncated performances last night on the new Jazz at Lincoln Center thang) and he doesn't talk to you about what he has down, he talks about what he works on.

That's right - I only got to read that BP article a few days ago and it was such a change to read something like that - where the guy was talking about how he practices and tries to improve his tone, plays with others, breathing, one finger approach etc. - there was so much in that - rather than just selling you the latest product.

 

[NuNo]

I don't know how many people responding to the metronome subject have ever
been to a clinic given by Jeff. Discussing this topic on the internet isn't
going to prove anything except that everyone has an opinion. So does Jeff,
but I saw him on several occasions prove conclusively his points.

At the clinics that I attended, I personally saw the audience get dead quiet
each time he demonstrated the ineffective use of a metronome to get good
time. He is mostly alone in this stance, and so when the believers in
metronomes were shown that they were wrong about their metronome practice
method, it really stunned them. They were really shocked, as was I the first
time I saw him do this.

He has consistently proved his points through action, not just discussion,
which is why I prefer not to discuss how he demonstrated this at the clinics
that I saw. It just seems to me that some participants in this conversation
will just try and pull my comments apart because they are against Jeff's
views. I believe that some on this forum aren't really interested in the
truth, just to attack one of the greatest bass players who ever lived
because he says what he thinks and can back it up. Incidently, when he
played his bass at the clinics, people were dead quiet as well. He floored
them with his bass playing. He's the greatest bass player in the country
right now.

I repeat; the clinics that I attended left the audience speechless. No one
there could contradict his opinions and he asked the audience several times
if they found any flaws in his thinking and his demonstratrion. His bass
playing was other-worldly, utterly without equal. No one ANYWHERE plays like
this guy. If you saw him in person, you would be silent as well.

If you disagree with Jeff, visit a clinic, or better yet, attend one of his
one week intensives at The Players School of Music. He has always been
friendly and open with everyone, and WELCOMES different opinions.

Anthony

 

[Dave Grossman]

At the clinics that I attended, I personally saw the audience get dead quiet
each time he demonstrated the ineffective use of a metronome to get good
time.

Practicing with a metronome is something that takes days, weeks and/or months to show an effect in your playing. Unless his demonstration took more than a day, I'd say that he could not have proven anything worthwhile either way.

He has consistently proved his points through action, not just discussion,
which is why I prefer not to discuss how he demonstrated this at the clinics
that I saw. It just seems to me that some participants in this conversation
will just try and pull my comments apart because they are against Jeff's
views. I believe that some on this forum aren't really interested in the
truth, just to attack one of the greatest bass players who ever lived
because he says what he thinks and can back it up. Incidently, when he
played his bass at the clinics, people were dead quiet as well. He floored
them with his bass playing. He's the greatest bass player in the country
right now.

This discussion is becoming circular and is not going anywhere. I disagree with everything in the above paragraph (except about flooring the audience which I would certainly expect) but I am not going to keep this going further by pointing out why. I think the reasons are clear to most of the readers anyway.

Regardless of Jeff's stature in the bass-playing world, he says a lot of things that are just flat-out wrong and when asked to back up what he says, he remains silent or tells us to go to a clinic to find out. This methodology has only served to exile him from at least two popular bass discussion forums ( talkbass.com and The Bottom Line ).

Jeff may be a great teacher for a great many musical concepts, however, telling people that metronomes cannot help them improve their time is completely false and irresponsible. Many of us have already proven this to ourselves and have encouraged others to do the same.

Remember, I was a huge JB fan for over 15 years before I heard what he had to say here. This is not personal. This is about making sure that people do not make the mistake of ignoring metronomes because Jeff told them to. I ignored metronomes for years against the advice of my teachers. I did so because I wasn't good at playing with them and became frustrated. I figured that I sounded fine when playing with a drummer so who cares about playing with a metronome. Big mistake! I missed a chance to join this band http://www.thegood.org/ because when they scrutinized the recording we made in the audition, they could tell that my time wasn't that great. Note that this was my second audition so I obviously made it through the first one. Even though when we were playing it seemed that the time was okay, listening back to it made the timing problems more obvious. This is probably why so many people think they're time is so good even when it may not be. This is also why I recommend metronomes so highly. The click don't lie.

People need to figure out if metronomes can help them for themselves. Taking Jeff's advice to not use them might be the biggest mistake a bass player can make.

Let's just let this one go. It's obvious that Jeff is never going to tell us what his proof entails and not even a main propronent of his will tell us so why go on? Even if we are told what the proof is, I fully expect that it does not prove what it purports to or is flawed. I'm sure that the Flat Earth Society could offer many proofs as to the planar nature of the Earth.

- Dave

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I believe that some on this forum aren't really interested in the
truth, just to attack one of the greatest bass players who ever lived
because he says what he thinks and can back it up.

Who might those "some" be? And by what methodology do you claim to claim to have gleaned this insight that they "aren't really interested in the truth"? I believe that everyone from TB who has posted in this thread has posted for the very reason that they are interested in the truth, and they believe the truth to be very different from what Jeff believes. All of which is fine. But I don't see anyone "attacking" Jeff, as you claim - I just see people disagreeing with him, which is their right. And mine.

He's the greatest bass player in the country
right now.

He's a great bass player, there's no doubt about that. The rest is subjective opinion, and always will be.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I don't know how many people responding to the metronome subject have ever
been to a clinic given by Jeff. Discussing this topic on the internet isn't
going to prove anything except that everyone has an opinion. So does Jeff,
but I saw him on several occasions prove conclusively his points.

At the clinics that I attended, I personally saw the audience get dead quiet
each time he demonstrated the ineffective use of a metronome to get good
time. He is mostly alone in this stance, and so when the believers in
metronomes were shown that they were wrong about their metronome practice
method, it really stunned them. They were really shocked, as was I the first
time I saw him do this.

He has consistently proved his points through action, not just discussion,
which is why I prefer not to discuss how he demonstrated this at the clinics
that I saw. It just seems to me that some participants in this conversation
will just try and pull my comments apart because they are against Jeff's
views. I believe that some on this forum aren't really interested in the
truth, just to attack one of the greatest bass players who ever lived
because he says what he thinks and can back it up. Incidently, when he
played his bass at the clinics, people were dead quiet as well. He floored
them with his bass playing. He's the greatest bass player in the country
right now.

I repeat; the clinics that I attended left the audience speechless. No one
there could contradict his opinions and he asked the audience several times
if they found any flaws in his thinking and his demonstratrion. His bass
playing was other-worldly, utterly without equal. No one ANYWHERE plays like
this guy. If you saw him in person, you would be silent as well.

If you disagree with Jeff, visit a clinic, or better yet, attend one of his
one week intensives at The Players School of Music. He has always been
friendly and open with everyone, and WELCOMES different opinions.

Anthony

Is the bottom line that one would have to go to a clinic to find out what the alternative is? Is it just the idea that this information should not be disseminated for free? If not, is it really that difficult to explain?

I'm not attacking Jeff nor am I saying he's wrong. I've read a great deal of INFORMATION from one side of this debate and practically none from the other. IMO that's a problem.

What's the alternative? In plain language that even a bass player could understand?

 

[Davehenning]

He has consistently proved his points through action, not just discussion,
which is why I prefer not to discuss how he demonstrated this at the clinics that I saw. It just seems to me that some participants in this conversation will just try and pull my comments apart because they are against Jeff's
views.

Anthony

I am not against Jeff's views at all. In fact, I welcome them.

It would be really helpful to know HOW he demonstrated a metronome's ineffectiveness. I am really curious as to how he did that.

 

[wulf]

Is demonstrating the metronome's ineffectiveness like showing that the lady is really sawn in half? Hmnnn.....

It seems to me that most of the top rank players advocate the metronome as a useful tool. It's possible that some people have such a good natural sense of time that a click doesn't work but I imagine the vast majority (including many regularly working and gigging bassists) can do with some extra help in that department.

Wulf

 

[winston]

Just tonight I auditioned for a Cuban Timba band. I played with a pianist and percussionist, plus a metronome about half the time. The click definitely showed me when I was getting off time--and proved that the pianist was continually rushing montunos.

I've only started to frequently use a metronome since I started playing upright bass last year. I often use it for practicing classical stuff or jazz (set on offbeats). I find it very helpful. I know (and know of) many other serious musicians who have found metronomes beneficial. I did pretty well at the audition, but if I had never practiced with a metronome I prolly woulda bombed. If you ever play with people who use drum machines and sequencers you'd better get used to metronomic time reeeaal quick.

I've loved Jeff Berlin's playing for many years, and I wish his bass had been mixed way louder on the Bruford records. I believe I still have an Anderson Bruford Wakeman & Howe videotape in which Jeff filled in for an ailing Tony Levin. I've read his columns and net postings (including his stint here at TB), and I still don't really understand why he's so vehemently anti-metronome.