Is music theory important?

[dkelley]

I agree with the above. I think it's a pretty safe bet that Jaco Pastorius and Miles Davis both new theory, but they were able to "step outside" with great success.

Just to clarify my feeling, I don't feel they stepped outside of the rules of theory at all. Everything they played was perfectly fitting with contemporary chord and melodic and rhythmic progressions - just the choices of how to play those things was far more inventive, and technically brilliant, and showy, and enjoyable, than when most other folks do it.

However it's not like they were simply playing in the wrong key all the time without knowing it because it sounded good to them...

if you think miles or jaco were playing outside (I argue they weren't since there is theory that fits with what they did) then try some 20th century music from the likes of Bela Bartok or dozens of other well known brilliant "classical" composers. Far, FAR more complex than anything jaco, miles, or pretty much anyone else in history has ever done before or after, yet it fits perfectly well within the rules of theory - as long as you account for specialty items like quarter-tone scales (Bartok).

So again - knowing theory helps prevent you from doing something that is simply wrong - and when it's wrong, it SOUNDS wrong, and also is wrong in theory.

Here is the reason why theory exists: to help us make music that doesn't sound bad, and to help us do it with and for other musicians.

The rules of theory were created, and evolved, because our ears like the sounds and need it documented so it can be communicated with others, and also to help us write more music that sounds good without having to randomly guess if this note or that note will sound good with/before/after this or that other note... instead we write down what we've learned and base future work on those writings.

That is music theory, and it evolves as we do and our music does.

It has absolutely evolved to the point (long long ago) where there is effectively a theoretic explanation for almost everything that someone out there in the world thinks sounds good.

However there are some things that simply sound bad - they get words like cacophony.

;-)

 

[dkelley]

As to "rules," theory CAN be rules in that in order to sound like a certain style you have to do certain things, like my example of no parallel 4ths and 5ths in 18th-century classical, for instance. But, other styles break THOSE particular rules in order to have the particular sound that THEY have.

Theory can tell you what and what not to do.

but there is published music theory that will condone the style that breaks THOSE particular rules... which is the great thing about theory.

Within a certain style, do what you want as long as you're not breaking the rules. If you do break the rules, and it honestly sounds good, then come up with a new style and/or theory to explain it - like "Punk Jazz" (to quote a Jaco thing again ;-) )

 

[dkelley]

In essence, the OP's question is: which is better, knowledge or lack of knowledge?

The fact that this question is even asked is a sad commentary on the dumbing down of America

wow, observant. yea, you're right. and the OP isn't dumbed down or anything of the sort - just asking an innocent question, but one founded in the sort of misguided opinion assumed to be fact the world is constantly shoving at us through "reality" shows and so forth.

I'm going to go see if I can make my bass sound like a BC Ferry horn now. There's theory here too - you have to detune one of the notes a bit in the major third...

 

[dkelley]

I'd just noticed how easily we could switch from a question about music theory to child psychology; therefore, I'll try to use some other people's statements why do musicians (not groupies) need to learn music theory.

It probably could irritate some non-lovers of music theory.
So be it.

Music Theory for the Music Professional by Richard Sorce
http://www.amazon.com/Richard-Sorce/e/B001K7XP5Y

"The rules employed in composition and harmony have become rules because they were, and still are, the practice of all successful composers.

(Is a bass player composing bassline/counterpoint or just noodling?)

“Breaking the rules” is a widely used phrase—one which is often uttered by novice musicians with hardly enough experience and training to speak with any authority.

Too many “artists” are ready to break the rules without first learning the principles of their art as best they can.

In this high-tech society, many have come to expect results with minimal effort.

This is witnessed in theory, composition, and other types of music courses; students want to score, arrange, and compose “great” music before they learn how to connect two chords properly!

This enthusiasm is indeed beneficial, but one must crawl before one can walk. Perhaps with the aid of sophisticated synthesizers and computers one is able to impress others with one’s creations; but it is highly doubtful that one could conceive, develop, and present a worthy piece of art without mastering the basic techniques of composition.

Years of formal study will not guarantee the success of any creative work if the artist does not possess the necessary creative spirit.

However, formal education in music does guarantee exposure to the multitude of styles, practices, and procedures that have developed throughout the history of composition, and thus will prepare the student musician to function competently in several facets of the music profession.

Curiously, a significant proportion of musicians do not listen attentively; indeed, some musicians possess a “hearing” ear while others possess a “listening” ear. For the truly serious musician enough musical “information” is available daily to whet the appetite of the “listening” ear. Simply hearing music is not enough for the music professional; the professional must listen, listen carefully, listen theoretically, and listen critically."

What a great quote! I wish I could fit that in my signature ;-)

Maybe I'd have to shorten it to "Theory Rocks!"

 

[zachoff]

I never once said learning isn't helpful & have said otherwise in a couple of posts. All I've ever said is if it sounds good it is good and there are no rules when it comes to art and creativity.

If what you create can be explained in theory... Cool. If what you create goes against current theory... Cool. I don't really care as long as it sounds good.

 

[dkelley]

That's totally true. Just easier to get to that point with theory once you're really good at it.

Not necessary? Sure. There are challenges either way.

 

[bass geetarist]

dkelley I apologize for not being very clear. When I said "stepped outside", I really meant outside of the standard diatonic scales. I'm on the side of learning theory, and I do understand that any music made (at least on instruments I can play) can be explained in theory.

Interesting what you say about theory being adopted and used to create future music. I have always wondered about the origins of the choice of notes that were (literally) hard wired into my bass.

 

[jblmusic1994]

dkelley I apologize for not being very clear. When I said "stepped outside", I really meant outside of the standard diatonic scales. I'm on the side of learning theory, and I do understand that any music made (at least on instruments I can play) can be explained in theory.

Interesting what you say about theory being adopted and used to create future music. I have always wondered about the origins of the choice of notes that were (literally) hard wired into my bass.

Ever things that are "out" that aren't technically supported have a theoretical explanation. Any harmonic tension and resolution can be explained.

 

[JimmyM]

I never once said learning isn't helpful & have said otherwise in a couple of posts. All I've ever said is if it sounds good it is good and there are no rules when it comes to art and creativity.

If what you create can be explained in theory... Cool. If what you create goes against current theory... Cool. I don't really care as long as it sounds good.

That's the thing...nothing goes against theory. For anything you do musically, it can be explained by theory and it has a name. Theory isn't about teaching you what you can't do. It's about teaching you what you're doing and what you CAN do that you may not have thought about before.

 

[Russell L]

You doctor isn't creating art... Hopefully, anyway.

Aw, I know. Just saying that it's good to study your craft/art.

 

[Russell L]

That's the thing...nothing goes against theory. For anything you do musically, it can be explained by theory and it has a name. Theory isn't about teaching you what you can't do. It's about teaching you what you're doing and what you CAN do that you may not have thought about before.

Well, it can also tell you what not to do, say, if your trying to fit into a style. Like don't play a bunch of rock licks in a bluegrass band (although some will fit anyway).

 

[datsaxguy]

Theory isn't about teaching you what you can't do. It's about teaching you what you're doing and what you CAN do that you may not have thought about before.

It helps u to explore the infinite possibilities. Its crucial being an improvisor. I'm a straight ahead jazz guy at heart. If you are mortal, its just not possible to play that music w/o being armed with some theory.

I know tons of bass players that just want to repeat what other players have played. That's cool, but if u wanna do more than that theory is a great tool to take the next step.

 

[dkelley]

It helps u to explore the infinite possibilities. Its crucial being an improvisor. I'm a straight ahead jazz guy at heart. If you are mortal, its just not possible to play that music w/o armed with some theory.

I know tons of bass players that just want to repeat what other players have played. That's cool, but if u wanna do more than that theory is a great tool to take the next step.

Yup, when coming up with new material fast, theory is vital and fuels creativity while preventing bloopers. Just like song writing and composing quickly, but even more crucial with real time improvising.

 

[Russell L]

By the majority of replies here I think we have proven that music theory IS important.

 

[bassdude51]

You'll find that learning even a tiny bit of theory will help your playing and allow you to progress.

I don't know a very large amount of theory, but I can tell you, what I've learned has done nothing but benefit me.

I agree strongly! Even a little bit of theory will GREATLY help a person play bass. And knowing some theory doesn't mean that one is locked into some kind of strict and restrictive type of playing!

Knowing some theory is not hard to do. It doesn't take months and months and months to learn a little bit of theory! In fact, in less than a month, one can easily learn some theory! The stuff is on the net! FREE! Youtube! Just surf!

The funny thing is, is that very experienced bassists that play totally by ear and are completely theory ingnorant, actually use the rules of theory to play bass lines and they don't even realize it!

Do you know what a major triad is? (one of the simplest of all bass lines! hint, Ob La Di Ob La Da, The Beatles. Light My Fire, The Doors.)

Do you know what a minor triad is?

The knowledge of major and minor triads alone can equip a bassist able to play any song on the spot! (yes, simple boring and predictable but the triads will work in pretty much anything.)

A major scale? A minor scale? The Blues scale? The I IV V chord pattern? Ya gotta know this stuff!

Man! A little bit of theory is a MUST!

 

[bassdude51]

I found this in my computer's favorites list. An old Talkbass thread.

Read #1

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f22/t...c-theory-novice-frustrated-might-help-956105/

 

[socialleper]

Luck is much more important in the music business than theory.

Also loading up on theory cannot compensate for a lack of talent.

Those are two pretty important ideas.
There are far better musicians in the world than the ones that have "make it", but the difference is someone was standing in the right place at the right time playing the right song. Hard work matters in that the more you play out the more the odds are in your favor that someone will hear you. You might be a musical genius, but you're never going to get discovered in your garage. At the same time, you can be playing a show and knock your set out of the park, but someone important doesn't show up until after your set and now the half-ass band after you gets a record deal.

A person can understand music inside and out but still not be able to carry a tune or write something people want to hear. Creativity is a fickle thing.

I've figured out recently that understanding music lets you conceptualize complex parts of it in a more organized fashion, so learning hard pieces isn't AS hard. If you compare it to dance, they have names for moves just like we have names for different scales, that way they can break into larger junks rather than remembering "step here, step here, shuffle here" etc. A musician with some music theory behind them can look at a long string of notes and instead of seeing a bunch of notes to remember, they know its a certain scale that they are already familiar with, taking out some of the chaos. Since I don't have much in the way of theory knowledge I can't do that and a long string of quick notes quickly becomes a confusing jumble. I'd say that I've hurt myself by not having formal training.

 

[MegaSwing]

By the majority of replies here I think we have proven that music theory IS important.

...And the cow was returned to its rightful owner.

 

[lfmn16]

Luck is much more important in the music business than theory.

True, but the more you know, better you play, the more opportunities you will have and the better chance that you will be in the right place at the right time.

Also loading up on theory cannot compensate for a lack of talent.

True, but even someone with no talent will be a better player if they learn theory. It's about making the most out of what you have.

 

[INTP]

That's the thing...nothing goes against theory. For anything you do musically, it can be explained by theory and it has a name. Theory isn't about teaching you what you can't do. It's about teaching you what you're doing and what you CAN do that you may not have thought about before.

I think this is a key point. When I started thinking of theory as describing the relationships of the sounds, rather than as a prescription for what notes to play, I found my resistance to learning it faded.

For example, a perfect 5th has a sound, and harmonic theory just gives it a name. Jazz chords might sound 'jazzy' because they use intervals that you don't often hear in other styles of music. Understanding those relationships just means more tools in your musical toolbox, and having a common language for communicating (using theory terms, or communicating via playing) with other players.