Is music theory important?

[Clef_de_fa]

True, but since we're in Eb, I wrote it the first way because that's "correct" for the key. But if it helps you reconcile the changes, nothing wrong with thinking of it that way.

Ok I didn't took into consideration that you were in Eb. So in this case I see it as C-F#-Eb-F, the two last notes are an anticipation to return into Eb instead of stay into Gmaj

 

[Russell L]

Why? Bb is the dom. 7th of C. If I feel like a Bb is appropriate, I'll play it and not think twice about it.

Just tonight, one of our horn guys questioned a chart I wrote for the old song "Mother In Law" where the chord changes in the chorus go from Eb major to G major, and the line I had the horns play against that G chord were the notes C-Gb-Eb-F. He asked me if that's really what I intended to write. I said yes it is. He says, "But you wrote it over a G chord. That can't be right."

I said, "Just go with it. It's rock and roll."

And indeed it is:

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For an arrangement you CAN DO whatever you like. All I mean is that theory can also tell you what NOT to do as well. If a chart says C6 then the arranger wanted C E G A. Or, let's say you're playing Unchained Melody in C. Then don't put a Bb in the I chord, unless you're going for a special arrangement or you're just before the bridge and going to the IV chord. Or how about the second chord in Take the A Train? It's D7b5. So, play an Ab in there, NOT an A. Otherwise, you'll clash with the melody which holds the Ab.

Theory hepls us understand in both directions of what and what not to do. Not that you can't break rules, though.

[EDIT: oops, I said D7#5 and A# originally on A Train. Sorry to those who read it before the edit].

 

[Whousedtoplay]

When it comes down to it, theory is merely putting names to things that are supposed to sound good and you don't have to go to school to figure this stuff out. It might be helpful & you'll learn the names for a lot of the stuff you already know, but really... One could "hear" theory without really learning anything.

Let's say, I don't have enough music theory knowledge, but was able to push some notes on the keyboard and, by using my "if-it-sounds-good-to-me" method, wrote some kind of chord progression.

Now, I have a few questions for you.

1. Could you, please, write down the chords for the guitar player from Part 1 and Part 2?
I need to tell the chords to the guitar player.

2. Could you, please, explain to me why it is OK for the bass guitar (My aural skills said so) to play an ostinato figure on note A in Part 1 (Bar 1 through Bar 4)?
My guitar player disagrees with me; therefore, I need some support.

3. I got stuck in Part 2 because I could not figure out what note the bass should play; therefore, I wrote several variations.
What note should the bass guitar play and why in Part 2?

 

[Clef_de_fa]

I would hope it's not about becoming an awesome shredder. That stuff is awful.

You can learn/hear a lot of theory w/o having to be told it's so. For instance, it doesn't take a degree to realize a I, IV, V progression "sounds" good. You could also probably figure out that notes in a major, minor, or pentatonic scale sound good together. These are simple examples, but examples nonetheless.

When it comes down to it, theory is merely putting names to things that are supposed to sound good and you don't have to go to school to figure this stuff out. It might be helpful & you'll learn the names for a lot of the stuff you already know, but really... One could "hear" theory without really learning anything. A 5 year old Mozart, for instance... For you classical folks. The rock & roll folks already know. Haha.

you can also developpe some taste in music that made no sense or you thought was aweful but now that you have cracked the code you can appreciate it.

 

[dkelley]

you can also developpe some taste in music that made no sense or you thought was aweful but now that you have cracked the code you can appreciate it.

+1

 

[Russell L]

you can also developpe some taste in music that made no sense or you thought was aweful but now that you have cracked the code you can appreciate it.

Very true. I remember studying 12-tone music in college (Schoenberg, et al) and thinking how awful it sounds. But when the professor explained the theory of how it it written I at least gained a respect for it (although I can't listen to it and enjoy the actual sound of it:scowl. Same thing in art. While some modern art looks like junk it helps when you know something about what the artist was thinking.

 

[BassChuck]

Let's say, I don't have enough music theory knowledge, but was able to push some notes on the keyboard and, by using my "if-it-sounds-good-to-me" method, wrote some kind of chord progression.

Now, I have a few questions for you.

1. Could you, please, write down the chords for the guitar player from Part 1 and Part 2?
I need to tell the chords to the guitar player.

2. Could you, please, explain to me why it is OK for the bass guitar (My aural skills said so) to play an ostinato figure on note A in Part 1 (Bar 1 through Bar 4)?
My guitar player disagrees with me; therefore, I need some support.

3. I got stuck in Part 2 because I could not figure out what note the bass should play; therefore, I wrote several variations.
What note should the bass guitar play and why in Part 2?

I'll have a go. But if you reduce the notes in your example to chord symbols, you're asking a guitar player, or keyboard player to re-interpret the harmony and they may include notes you didn't want. I'd call the second chord in the Part two example a Em11 and a slash and whatever bass note you finally choose.
Actually, if your guitar player has both oars in the water, they should be able to play the notes as written without calling it something.

 

[dkelley]

Actually, if your guitar player has both oars in the water, they should be able to play the notes as written without calling it something.

Very true, and I love the expression also

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I'll have a go. But if you reduce the notes in your example to chord symbols, you're asking a guitar player, or keyboard player to re-interpret the harmony and they may include notes you didn't want. I'd call the second chord in the Part two example a Em11 and a slash and whatever bass note you finally choose.
Actually, if your guitar player has both oars in the water, they should be able to play the notes as written without calling it something.

What have we learned so far from this numerously commented thread, "Is music theory important", my dear netizens of the TalkBass nation?

IT'S A MUST TO LEARN MUSIC THEORY EVEN FOR A BASS PLAYER if you want to become more or less serious about music.

There is no other way to get there.

 

[gavinspoon]

Here's a painless introduction to theory to get you started.
'How Music Works' was a British TV series by the composer Howard Goodall;

01 Melody Invalid Link Removed
02 Rhythm Invalid Link Removed
03 Harmony Invalid Link Removed
04 Bass Invalid Link Removed

His '20th Century Greats' show was very good too. Here's the one on the Beatles

http://youtu.be/kKK0bCSIR4E

 

[topo morto]

If you want to be a worthwhile and innovative composer, you don't need to learn any one "Music Theory" - you need to be able to create your own ways to consider music, otherwise you will be trapped in the wheel ruts of the past.

If you just want to be a basic cookie-cutter rockstar though, then yes - you should learn music theory. It is the perfect tool to help you copy all those old songs but change them a bit so you don't get sued.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

If you want to be a worthwhile and innovative composer, you don't need to learn any one "Music Theory" - you need to be able to create your own ways to consider music, otherwise you will be trapped in the wheel ruts of the past.

If you just want to be a basic cookie-cutter rockstar though, then yes - you should learn music theory. It is the perfect tool to help you copy all those old songs but change them a bit so you don't get sued.

I know you are so smart, but could you please help me with my questions from my previous posting?

No more talk, just your knowledgeable answers to my questions.

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=358547&d=1377554897

1. Could you, please, write down the chords for the guitar player from Part 1 and Part 2?
2. Could you, please, explain to me why it is OK for the bass guitar (My aural skills said so) to play an ostinato figure on note A in Part 1 (Bar 1 through Bar 4)?
My guitar player disagrees with me; therefore, I need some support.
3. I got stuck in Part 2 because I could not figure out what note the bass should play; therefore, I wrote several variations.
What note should the bass guitar play and why in Part 2?

 

[Febs]

1. Could you, please, write down the chords for the guitar player from Part 1 and Part 2?

Amaj9 A9 | Bm7(b5)/F Fdim | Gdim* Bbm/A A9 | Bm7(b5)/F Fdim |

(*I would write the C# in this chord as a Db)

2. Could you, please, explain to me why it is OK for the bass guitar (My aural skills said so) to play an ostinato figure on note A in Part 1 (Bar 1 through Bar 4)?

I think that "my aural skills said so" is a perfectly valid answer to the question "why is it OK to play this note here?" But if you're looking for some theoretical justification of why the A works under those chords, I would say it is functioning as a pedal point.

3. I got stuck in Part 2 because I could not figure out what note the bass should play; therefore, I wrote several variations.
What note should the bass guitar play and why in Part 2?

That question is impossible to answer as presented, because you have provided a single measure without any context for what else is happening in the song and in the harmony. Given the way you stated the question, the best answer is, "it depends" -- it depends on the desired sound and what else is going on in the arrangement in this measure. In each measure here, you have a Cmin7 followed by an Emin11. Playing an Ab in the bass under the Cmin7 will make it an Abmaj9. Each of the four choices presented for the Emin11 will have a different sound. Which of those sounds do you want? That's what the bass should play.

With that said, if I were looking solely at the way the chord in the top staff is voiced and selecting a bass note without any other context, my first choice would be an E.

Now what exactly is the point of this exercise?

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Amaj9 A9 | Bm7(b5)/F Fdim | Gdim* Bbm/A A9 | Bm7(b5)/F Fdim |
(*I would write the C# in this chord as a Db)

Can I write A aug (-9) or A 9 (+5) instead of Bbm/A?

Can I write A7 (-9) instead of Gdim?

Can I write A7 sus4 instead of Emin11?

Now what exactly is the point of this exercise?

My point is very simple:

I just wanted to show some musicians, even the talented ones, how difficult it is to be illiterate around music.

Look at this thread. There are so many views and comments about NOTHING.

Look at the time wasted talking about NOTHING.

AND NOTHING LEARNED.

That's it.

And thank you for your response.

 

[Russell L]

If you want to be a worthwhile and innovative composer, you don't need to learn any one "Music Theory" - you need to be able to create your own ways to consider music, otherwise you will be trapped in the wheel ruts of the past.

If you just want to be a basic cookie-cutter rockstar though, then yes - you should learn music theory. It is the perfect tool to help you copy all those old songs but change them a bit so you don't get sued.

Aw, music theory doesn't get you stuck in the past. It simply shows you what's been done so you can intelligently choose you own way.

 

[Febs]

Can I write A aug (-9) or A 9 (+5) instead of Bbm/A?

I actually did write A9#5 first, but then changed it to Bbm/A for two reasons. First, the written note is a Db rather than a C#, so if it is written as an A9#5, there is an enharmonic misspelling in the written chord. (Same with the F natural. The #5 of an A chord is an E#.) Second, an A9#5 has a G natural, and there is no G natural in the written chord.

(As an aside, if I were going to write it as an A9#5, I would use the "#" sign rather than the "+" sign to indicate the raised fifth. I strongly disfavor the use of the "+" and "-" signs to show those alterations, because (1) the sharp and flat signs already exist for that purpose, and (2) the "+" and "-" signs can often be ambiguous. For example, I sometimes see charts with the chord symbol A+9. Is that an A augmented triad with a natural ninth? Or an A triad with a sharp nine? Better to avoid the ambiguity.)

Can I write A7 (-9) instead of Gdim?

You could, particularly if you are looking at the full chord created by the bass line combined with the chords written in the treble clef staff. As I understood your original question, however, you wanted guitar chords based on the treble clef staff alone, and given the four notes identified there (G Bb C# E), I think that Gdim is the better choice, and the choice that is more likely to get a guitar player to play a voicing close to the original harmony.

Can I write A7 sus4 instead of Emin11?

Same answer.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I actually did write A9#5 first, but then changed it to Bbm/A for two reasons. First, the written note is a Db rather than a C#, so if it is written as an A9#5, there is an enharmonic misspelling in the written chord. (Same with the F natural. The #5 of an A chord is an E#.) Second, an A9#5 has a G natural, and there is no G natural in the written chord.

(As an aside, if I were going to write it as an A9#5, I would use the "#" sign rather than the "+" sign to indicate the raised fifth. I strongly disfavor the use of the "+" and "-" signs to show those alterations, because (1) the sharp and flat signs already exist for that purpose, and (2) the "+" and "-" signs can often be ambiguous. For example, I sometimes see charts with the chord symbol A+9. Is that an A augmented triad with a natural ninth? Or an A triad with a sharp nine? Better to avoid the ambiguity.)



You could, particularly if you are looking at the full chord created by the bass line combined with the chords written in the treble clef staff. As I understood your original question, however, you wanted guitar chords based on the treble clef staff alone, and given the four notes identified there (G Bb C# E), I think that Gdim is the better choice, and the choice that is more likely to get a guitar player to play a voicing close to the original harmony.

In my personal opinion, your answer is the only one comment/posting in this thread that is informative and educational for the beginner musician.

 

[gavinspoon]

In my personal opinion, your answer is the only one comment/posting in this thread that is informative and educational for the beginner musician.

We all love you too xxx

 

[Groove Master]

Hypothetically, if I wanted to be the next big spunky rockstar, would studying music be important? Even if I had a heartfelt passion for playing bass or guitar or whatever, is it really important to know how many beats a quaver goes for? To me, theory isn't what music is about. Music is about playing something that sounds good (to me atleast) and feeling a connection to your instrument or words beyond logic or reason.
What do you think?

Nahhhh!!!

Leave it to the others that want to learn and improve seriously

 

[Whousedtoplay]

We all love you too xxx

I'm getting way too emotional and cannot hold my tears anymore.

I LOVE YOU, MAN.