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Is my lead singer that bad?
- Thread starter Manuel101
- Start date
Great answer!!!
A bunch of bass players giving advice on lead vocals?? Gimme a break!!!
The guy isn't that bad. Some lessons so he can control his voice better when playing live.
The studio stuff sounds fine to me. Plenty of passion, tone and pitch in his delivery.
This 'knee jerk' advice: "Get rid of him" seems to be standard for TalkBass nowadays.
They say you learn from your mistakes. If you fire him, it may be a mistake too far!!!
jive1
Commercial User
Don't forget Ozzy..... When I was a kid and listened to "Live at Last", I was like "who is singing this stuff?". And this isn't just a live show, it was an album release. I've heard plenty of live vocals that wasn't even close to the recording.
I think people say "fire them" easily because they have nothing at stake. They don't need to break the news, they don't need to deal with the relationships, they don't need to find a replacement or deal with ownership issues like songwriting credits, etc. If each TB member had to actually deal with the fallout of firing someone, I'm sure it wouldn't be so easy to say.
I've done music for over 20 years, and I can count the number of people that I've fired on one hand. I know a bandleader around here who will fire and replace someone as soon as there's any type of issue. He is the epitome of the TB "fire them" crowd. He's had this band for years, yet bands with less laps around the block do better. He's run through most of the decent players in town, and lots of people won't work with him. He has clients pissed at him because the band he brings is not even close to the band he advertises. He has gigs booked for months in advance and they are paid, but he still posts ads on Craigslist to find someone to fill a gig last minute. By following the "fire them" philosophy, he really has stunted the growth of his band and diluted the quality of his show.
Also, we don't know what else he brings to the band. If he wrote the songs, then by firing him, you'd have to write all new material unless you are going to steal his tunes (bad karma). If he has the PA, booking connections, etc. you may send the band back a few steps. IME, you should find a way to work with a person before letting them go.
IMO, the biggest problem is that the phrasing that he uses highlights his weaknesses too much. It probably can be fixed. If I can sing lead, and actually have a crowd appreciate it now and then, anyone can.
thing is he never ever shows up to the band evaluation meetings but the drummer usually tells him what we think and i usually tell him to right songs that are within his singing range so he doesn't waste his vocals by the end of the set.
Yes, the singer needs help with some technique. He may, or may not have a pain killer issue. The whole world, via TalkBass does not need to know anything about his medical history.
The original, and a few subsequent posts have a passive-aggressive feel to me.
The original, and a few subsequent posts have a passive-aggressive feel to me.
DiabolusInMusic
Functionless Art is Merely Tolerated Vandalism
Why are people defending this singer? They are a professional sounding band without a professional sounding singer. They should find a singer at their same level, which admittedly is extremely difficult, but it would be the best step for the band short of a miracle in singing lessons.
I will agree Kiedis can't sing a note live, never could, but Axl Rose, Steven Tyler, and Perry Ferrel can sing spectacularly, one bad night doesn't make a bad singer and this guy is nowhere near their same league. Have you watched their other vid? 2 videos from 2 totally different shows, one being considerably worse than the other, he is a mediocre singer and should be playing with a mediocre band until he gets his chops up.
It is like playing with a drummer that you have to explain 3/4 time to, or a guitar player who can't solo on anything other than the pentatonics, you should not have to play with a weak link, especially the vocalist.
You have played enough bars to know that a bad singer completely tarnishes a good band. Sure we musicians can appreciate the other musicians but ask the people in the crowd, the singer is the most judged member of the band in today's society.
He didn't ask if he should fire him, he asked if he was a bad singer, which is what most people confirmed. I would certainly not say the majority said "Fire him", the OP didn't ask for solutions, on that note I would suggest you try and improve him if he is a friend.
On the other hand, I would have fired him the second he took drugs on stage. I use drugs but don't drink, don't care for drunks, but I play in bars so I deal with bandmates doing shots or drinking on stage, the amount of crowd shots I have turned down would kill a horse. If I ever had a bandmate do ANY kind of drug on stage, either he gets fired by the band that night or I walk. I don't need that garbage.
I will agree Kiedis can't sing a note live, never could, but Axl Rose, Steven Tyler, and Perry Ferrel can sing spectacularly, one bad night doesn't make a bad singer and this guy is nowhere near their same league. Have you watched their other vid? 2 videos from 2 totally different shows, one being considerably worse than the other, he is a mediocre singer and should be playing with a mediocre band until he gets his chops up.
It is like playing with a drummer that you have to explain 3/4 time to, or a guitar player who can't solo on anything other than the pentatonics, you should not have to play with a weak link, especially the vocalist.
You have played enough bars to know that a bad singer completely tarnishes a good band. Sure we musicians can appreciate the other musicians but ask the people in the crowd, the singer is the most judged member of the band in today's society.
He didn't ask if he should fire him, he asked if he was a bad singer, which is what most people confirmed. I would certainly not say the majority said "Fire him", the OP didn't ask for solutions, on that note I would suggest you try and improve him if he is a friend.
On the other hand, I would have fired him the second he took drugs on stage. I use drugs but don't drink, don't care for drunks, but I play in bars so I deal with bandmates doing shots or drinking on stage, the amount of crowd shots I have turned down would kill a horse. If I ever had a bandmate do ANY kind of drug on stage, either he gets fired by the band that night or I walk. I don't need that garbage.
This truly has been a sobering experience it did not occur to me before posting that I was violating his right of privacy. I feel horrible now, I REALLY like the guy and we want it to work out with him but I worry about whether or not we are doing things right. He writes the vocals we write the music and we are developing our sound and our following is growing but enough people keep bringing the vocal issue up that the drummer and I are really concern.
I also asked because i know that emotions can cloud your judgement sometimes, I would like to say that i am the exception but i know better. Also we have a friend who has a horrible singer and we tell him but he thinks we are wrong but his singer is horrible.
Excuse my ignorance but can you please elaborate on what you said about his phrasing? Most people have said his vibrato is missing things up, is that what you mean?
IMO the best judge of a singers technique and ability would be a trained singer, esp. an advanced trainer...
To judge a singers fit with a band we don't need to be singers, or experts - just music fans... as we just need 'he fits well' or 'not so well' . . . or 'is that freddie mercury?'
This guy has OTT vibratto, but aside from that I don't really know better beyond a little off pitch (I can't really get a bead due to the vibrato)... a lot of people here do know quite a bit better, I'd take their advice seriously...
See if he's willing to train and keep it tight (time, pitch and technique). If he has no will and/or ability to hone his skills he wouldn't meet my definition of a vox lead and front person.
If you've gone this far you shouldn't run to personnel changes as a first step. But keep in mind ringo wasn't the beatles original drummer. He was brought in to lock the band down, as the previous guy (pete best) was seen as the weak link...
I hope he doesn't find this thread... you should try and deal with this for what it is - a personal thing within the group.
Good luck and remember what Mr. Nerve said. Compassion, not pity.
P.S. Nice bass tone on Dreamer. Sounds like it wants to beat someone up for no real reason...
To judge a singers fit with a band we don't need to be singers, or experts - just music fans... as we just need 'he fits well' or 'not so well' . . . or 'is that freddie mercury?'
This guy has OTT vibratto, but aside from that I don't really know better beyond a little off pitch (I can't really get a bead due to the vibrato)... a lot of people here do know quite a bit better, I'd take their advice seriously...
See if he's willing to train and keep it tight (time, pitch and technique). If he has no will and/or ability to hone his skills he wouldn't meet my definition of a vox lead and front person.
If you've gone this far you shouldn't run to personnel changes as a first step. But keep in mind ringo wasn't the beatles original drummer. He was brought in to lock the band down, as the previous guy (pete best) was seen as the weak link...
I hope he doesn't find this thread... you should try and deal with this for what it is - a personal thing within the group.
Good luck and remember what Mr. Nerve said. Compassion, not pity.
P.S. Nice bass tone on Dreamer. Sounds like it wants to beat someone up for no real reason...
jive1
Commercial User
Sort of, he just has passages that use long notes that make him become pitchy.
I can relate because I am a limited vocalist. I try to avoid songs that require me to hold long notes because it will show my pitchiness. I prefer staccato and percussive styles of singing (i.e. James Brown) because I can usually hold a note for a couple beats. But, if I had to hold the note for more than a measure, my pitchiness will show. I'll never be a crooner, but I'll live.
I also think that some of the songs are out of his range, or out of his comfort zone. I transpose keys for songs alot because I have a limited range. And sometimes that key isn't guitar friendly. You guys may need to cooperate by altering a key, but IMO it's easier to transpose than to replace a person, especially a friend. You can also increase the tempo, which will reduce his need to sing long notes.
The guy has a decent timbre, but poor pitch. It's hard to teach timbre, but you can teach pitch. You might find that with some small adjustments from the band, you can improve the vocals by making the backdrop easier for them to fit into.
Cut your loses now and replace him. The voice of experience here. We had a drummer with RA and he ate painkillers like candy. We never knew who was going to show up, the great guy we used to know or the drug crazed *******. After a year of trying to work with him b/c he was a good friend, finally we had to replace him. You want to have compassion b/c of his injuries but music is a business so...
Should just pull the post down so we can get back to assaulting the unwary w frequency response charts, calling people who don't buy fearful or baer idiots and killing others who mix cabinets.
At the end of the day is kinda hurtful if he ever was out googling
At the end of the day is kinda hurtful if he ever was out googling
If this guys a terrible singer & they have no chance of success with him how do you explain: David Lee Roth, Bob Dylan, Bruce Springsteen, Neil Young, Brian Johnson, Perry Farrel, Axl Rose, Jim Dandy, Johnny Rotten, Lemmy, on and on. All of these singers are bad in some aspect of singing, whether it's live performances, their tone or lack of it, yet they have had great carreres with less than typical vocal stylings.
I was defending the singer because of the way it was presented. If someone does it to themselves, that's one thing. But I don't want to beat that to death...Manuel feels bad enough. Hey man, we all make mistakes...just learn and let it go and don't beat yourself up over it.
Anyway, knowing that he's less interested in fixing his mistakes makes me feel less bad for him. However, I have heard much worse singers with hit records, I will say that. And if he writes good lyrics (not bad at all from where I'm sitting) and they're getting some real action, maybe the good might outweigh the bad. But part of being top flight is to accept criticism and adjust yourself when it's warranted. And if everyone else takes it in the spirit it's intended, he should, too. That part does concern me.
I love it. Yeah, those dumbass bass players, none of them know squat about lead vocals.
Simply awesome.
That's what I'm saying. People don't give a rat's ass if you have an unpleasant voice. Some will but plenty won't. All they care about is you moving them when you sing. And David Lee Roth, for as bad as he can sound live and as tired of hearing the old Van Halen stuff I might be, moves me when I hear him sing in a way that Sammy doesn't, even though Sammy's clearly the better singer. But Sammy has his fans and that's cool, too.
