Is There A Future For Tube Amps?

[markjazzbassist]

I wonder how many tube amp owners hoard tubes so that they won't run out in the future? Buying a lifetime supply is a good idea but expensive.

Some tubes are readily available but you never know. Look what happened to Winged -C- 6550's. One day they are available, next thing you know, they aren't.

What happens when Mike Matthews croaks, he's no spring chicken!

not too worried. tech has come back around. NASA is now using tubes again.

NASA develops speedy vacuum tube prototype for computers in space | The Verge

 

[BurningSkies]

I wonder how many tube amp owners hoard tubes so that they won't run out in the future? Buying a lifetime supply is a good idea but expensive.

Some tubes are readily available but you never know. Look what happened to Winged -C- 6550's. One day they are available, next thing you know, they aren't.

What happens when Mike Matthews croaks, he's no spring chicken!

The rate at which I change power tubes in my guitar amps is so slow (I've had my Twin since about 1994 and I've changed them once, several other small guitar amps, changed never with vintage tubes), that if this was coming down the pipe I could lay up a couple sets that would last me a century. Preamp tubes I have in various quantities because I like to 'play' with options and I have more amps/preamps with them.

Although once I found the ONE type of tape that works particularly well for my Space Echo (both in sound and not killing heads), I invested in a 1000m NOS pancake reel of it. BASF LGR-50 is long gone now, but I could spend 150$ on some... At 12 feet per loop, I can easily make them for the rest of my life. *I've also spread good musician will and built reggae scene equity by giving out loops to the soundmen and guys i know locally who use RE-201's. I make up a bunch, keep most and give out a handful to people.

 

[beans-on-toast]

not too worried. tech has come back around. NASA is now using tubes again.

NASA develops speedy vacuum tube prototype for computers in space | The Verge

And Korg has the Invalid Link Removed which is promising. I feel much better.

Long live tube amps.

 

[beans-on-toast]

The rate at which I change power tubes in my guitar amps is so slow (I've had my Twin since about 1994 and I've changed them once, several other small guitar amps, changed never with vintage tubes), that if this was coming down the pipe I could lay up a couple sets that would last me a century. Preamp tubes I have in various quantities because I like to 'play' with options and I have more amps/preamps with them.

Although once I found the ONE type of tape that works particularly well for my Space Echo (both in sound and not killing heads), I invested in a 1000m NOS pancake reel of it. BASF LGR-50 is long gone now, but I could spend 150$ on some... At 12 feet per loop, I can easily make them for the rest of my life.

I'd hoard that tape as well. Tape is a funny thing. I've got boxes of Ampex 456 stashed away for my recorder.

I have to admit that I am a tube hoarder. More the hard to find stuff.

 

[markjazzbassist]

The rate at which I change power tubes in my guitar amps is so slow (I've had my Twin since about 1994 and I've changed them once, several other small guitar amps, changed never with vintage tubes), that if this was coming down the pipe I could lay up a couple sets that would last me a century. Preamp tubes I have in various quantities because I like to 'play' with options and I have more amps/preamps with them.

Although once I found the ONE type of tape that works particularly well for my Space Echo (both in sound and not killing heads), I invested in a 1000m NOS pancake reel of it. BASF LGR-50 is long gone now, but I could spend 150$ on some... At 12 feet per loop, I can easily make them for the rest of my life. *I've also spread good musician will and built reggae scene equity by giving out loops to the soundmen and guys i know locally who use RE-201's. I make up a bunch, keep most and give out a handful to people.

RMG makes tape now, use it all the time, great stuff.

 

[BurningSkies]

I'd hoard that tape as well. Tape is a funny thing. I've got boxes of Ampex 456 stashed away for my recorder.

I have to admit that I am a tube hoarder. More the hard to find stuff.

I have a bunch of Quantagy (Ampex) 487 that was part of my 'testing' phase. It turns out that it wasn't a comfortable stock thickness for the Roland, and I had concerns with how smooth the medium was on the heads. I know some loop dealers were using it so I tried. With the cost of loops selling for between 7-15$ online, I'd much rather build my own for the rest of my life.

 

[BurningSkies]

RMG makes tape now, use it all the time, great stuff.

Of course there's a hitch. The Space Echoes don't like regular tape. They need what's referred to as 'lubricated' low print stuff. It was particularly used in things like radio station carts and in 8 track cartridges. because the Echoes run tape across the heads when the unit is powered on (often for many hours at a time) regular tape will grind into the heads, ruining them. At this point, replacing heads and/or any of the other parts can be a major problem.

 

[D.M.N.]

Class D is one thing, but digital modeling? Sure, it might sound good, I work in Logic, I use and like a lot of the plugins, but as far as my understanding goes, it can never exactly be the same as analog produced audio, if for nothing more than the fact that analog is a continuous time-signal/continuous fluctuation of electric voltage, whereas digitial is a discrete time-signal, in which the continuous time-signal of an analog input is approximated, and each original sample value is repalced (quantitization). This process, given it's only an approximation, loses information. While the Nyquist Theorem does allow for the possibility of perfect reconstruction of the sampled signal, while with high enough sample rates and bit-depths you can hide aliasing (or with a low-pass filter), the point is that a digital signal simple is not the same as an analog one.

So, digital sample can be good, that's fine for some people, but to claim it can do exactly what a tube amp does? Well, then I guess you can get into the whole "well functionally there's no difference" and I don't think anyone is going to win that argument. But what I WILL say is that part of the reason people prefer analog has been shown to be its technicaly limitations and defeciencies, which can introduce inaccuracies and variables (what people might refer to in vinyl as warmth). This can be the explanation regarding why no two amps of the same model, with the same components will necessarily sound the same. There are so many pieces of the puzzle which are interacting, and possibly deteriorating in real time, that to say a digital model can perfectly capture this is silly. It would have to be modeling so many individual parts of the signal chain, dynamically altering them as they interacted, and as far as I'm aware, there aren't any modeling amps doing that at the moment. As I believe Jimmy mentioned, modeling amps can capture a good portrait of what an amp may sound like mic'd and recorded, but that's not the same thing. And I'm not just talking about valve amps here, but all analog amplification.

My question is, WHY does it seem to be the goal for so many SS amps now to try to emulate a tube sound? I don't think Kustoms or Acoustics or other early SS amps were striving for this, and I don't know, but personally, I prefer what they sound like to more a lot of recent SS amps (maybe its component drift, and these amps not all being kept up to snuff or something along the lines of what I was saying above about people's preference for analog). Someone I guess could say this is just "vintage adoration", saying it's better simply because it's old, but I just appreciate what they're doing for what it is: providing a different tonal palatte. I'm more of the mind of use the tool for the job. If that job requires tubes, use them, if it requires a SS amp, use one. I guess I just don't get the hold idea of trying to make something sound like something it fundamentally isn't.

I can see a trend for maybe getting back into 100 watt class tube amps ... With more sane stage volumes, brought on by more and better FOH setups amps like the V4B into the matching 2x12 makes some sense in the present day world. After years of using micros and neos I have made a slight return to an all tube rig for certain select gigs. I can't see ever going back to them as a full time thing, and personally have no interest in hauling the big tube classic rigs around ... Smaller, lighter, and cheaper dollar per watt is where I see the mainstream of bass rigs going.

I've been using 120w amps for years now, though it's not so much for more reasonable stage volumes, but rather so I can crank them into slight power tube breakup. But I DO like seeing the return to lower watt tube heads in general, or rather a move away from wildly extavagently powered amps in general (not to say I don't think a 400w tube amp isn't something truly amazing). What I'd also like to see with this move away from higher power is a similar movement in speakers away from hilarious power handling to more effecient speakers, necessitating less power but being able to put out more SPLs. I'm refering to speakers more in the vein of old JBLs, lower power ratings, higher efficiency, and personally I think better tonal characteristics. Will it happen? I doubt it, but I'd like to see it.

Whenever we as musicians break things down to "Can the audience notice in a live setting" we are setting the bar way to low.

I think this is a very important point. Sure, it's the audience that you're performing for, and while the vast majority may not be able to tell, when did we start striving for the lowest common demoninator? There's going to be other musicians in that audience probably, maybe think about playing for them, or god forbid, yourself. You can put on a good show, sound great to yourself, and at the same time sound good to the audience. Whether they all notice shouldn't be the point, but whether those who care to notice can should be the point.

 

[beans-on-toast]

RMG makes tape now, use it all the time, great stuff.

Nice that reliable supplies are available. Availability was a worry for a while when companies were getting out of the business.

 

[Alexander]

I thihnk this is a very important point. Sure, it's the audience that you're performing for, and while the vast majority may not be able to tell, when did we start striving for the lowest common demoninator? There's going to be other musicians in that audience probably, maybe think about playing for them, or god forbid, yourself. You can put on a good show, sound great to yourself, and at the same time sound good to the audience. Whether they all notice shouldn't be the point, but whether those who care to notice can should be the point.

This is it, at least for me. Sure, I want to make sure my rig sounds great out front. But I also want it to sound good to me. I've played lots of gigs where I just couldn't hear myself or didn't like my tone. Was distracted and generally unhappy - trying to fiddle with knobs and making tweaks instead of getting into the music. When I'm REALLY happy with my tone, it inspires me to play better and I just enjoy the experience so much more. I've gotten some great tones with SS heads - Thunderfunk, Mesa, Hartke just to name a few. But nothing like what I hear with flats through my tube rig and a big stack of speakers...

 

[mantaraya]

it doesn't matter. the manufacturers don't make products for pros now, they make them for the people who buy them who are mostly hobbyest musicians. no problem or judgement there, just they are making 15000 dollar coffee table basses of which 5% of bass players who are pros use. the doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc who make more than most can afford these. road dogs making 25k or less a year touring and playing in bands cannot.

the most used rig of all time is fender bass, ampeg amp. passive and tube, classic. don't care how much hybrid, class D, sizzling tweeters are selling, I have never been in a studio where an engineer has said "hey man can i get that class D solid state type sound". they all say the same thing "flats into a tube amp, you've got the right idea kid, thanks"

+1. The market business has found is better to sell 100.000 units (P.E) of $300 "pro" studio Monitors rather than sell 1000 of $30000 Pro studio monitors. The business is now focused in selling this idea to the world: "Do it yourself" So cutting costs its the way to start

 

[JimmyM]

I wonder how many tube amp owners hoard tubes so that they won't run out in the future? Buying a lifetime supply is a good idea but expensive.

Some tubes are readily available but you never know. Look what happened to Winged -C- 6550's. One day they are available, next thing you know, they aren't.

What happens when Mike Matthews croaks, he's no spring chicken!

His son is just as wacky and driven as Mike is

 

[seamonkey]

I know you espouse a specific viewpoint (regularly and ad nauseam), but many of us find the sound of emulation and modeling to be unsatisfying. Sorry. Its like buying a kit car...Looks like a Ferrari, but it's a Honda on the inside and in performance.

We can be the China environmental police, but then you'll have to stop buying ALL electronics not just tubes. And probably most of the common household goods that nearly every American has in and around their homes.

If someone were to try a tube amp and didn't like it, I would bet they'd be told to try another amp, or changes the settings, gain, cabinet ...

So "Try another modeler", you might be surprised. If you have decent PC all of them have demo's to try. They are all over recordings these days. I also know that throughout history, change is hard. In some cases Organs replaced orchestras, electric basses replaced uprights, and tubas. Not all are even close to the original and then they become the new standard to sound like. Modeling does old and new.

We won't build tubes in the US, and China may not always make them. China likes new technology too.

 

[beans-on-toast]

His son is just as wacky and driven as Mike is

Nice to have a legacy to carry on the business.

Mike is a nice guy. We used to talk tubes years ago when I would call to place orders. Most their business is pedals now, tubes are just a small part from what I understand.

They have some really nice pedals and always interesting demo videos.

 

[seamonkey]

not too worried. tech has come back around. NASA is now using tubes again.

NASA develops speedy vacuum tube prototype for computers in space | The Verge

It's good to know that if it just says "Vacuum" then then qualifies it as going to sound great.

 

[JimmyM]

If someone were to try a tube amp and didn't like it, I would bet they'd be told to try another amp, or changes the settings, gain, cabinet ...

So "Try another modeler", you might be surprised. If you have decent PC all of them have demo's to try. They are all over recordings these days. I also know that throughout history, change is hard. In some cases Organs replaced orchestras, electric basses replaced uprights, and tubas. Not all are even close to the original and then they become the new standard to sound like. Modeling does old and new.

Organs never replaced orchestras, electric basses never replaced upright and tuba. All they did was enable people to create sounds nobody had ever heard before, and these sounds caught on. Modeling does nothing of the sort. Modeling is a new way to attempt to do the same thing we can do in other ways. And it's good...I've played pretty much every type of modeler out there, and I give it credit for being way closer than ever. Still has a long way to go, and agenda-driven posts such as yours do nothing to disguise that fact.

We won't build tubes in the US, and China may not always make them. China likes new technology too.

I will be long dead by the time demand for tubes ceases, but as long as there is demand, someone will make them.

 

[GregC]

Whilst others may not be experiencing it in the States there has been a considerable drop in tube amps here in Australia, both by players and retailers.

That's because rodl2005 and Tim1 are hoarding all the great tube amps in that part of the world.

 

[BurningSkies]

If someone were to try a tube amp and didn't like it, I would bet they'd be told to try another amp, or changes the settings, gain, cabinet ...

So "Try another modeler", you might be surprised. If you have decent PC all of them have demo's to try. They are all over recordings these days. I also know that throughout history, change is hard. In some cases Organs replaced orchestras, electric basses replaced uprights, and tubas. Not all are even close to the original and then they become the new standard to sound like. Modeling does old and new.

We won't build tubes in the US, and China may not always make them. China likes new technology too.

I would and do ask people to try a variety of amps and choose what sounds best to them. I don't tell them that it has to be tubes, solid state, or hybrid. Those who reject one technology out of hand, whether it be tube, or solid state, or digital tend to be closed minded.

BOTH those who only consider tubes and those who won't consider them. Lots of people picking a side of the fence to sit on around here and not bothering to look through to the other side.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

As far as tubes versus SS in the context of a live mix or being in the FOH, I've heard my amps from the audience during soundchecks and gigs probably hundreds of times. With someone knowledgeable and competent behind the desk, the fidelity, subtleties, and tone more than make it to the audience's ears. One of my favorite memories of playing with an opening band was when one of my friend's band opened. My friend's a great player and I heard him countless times through numerous rigs over the years; this night, he used my 400+ and the person behind the board had great ears. I've never heard an amp sound like that and never heard my friend sound like that. Does the audience care? Well, I doubt that they are standing their consciously considering the bass tone, but IME, the audience is sophisticated enough to discern overall aspects of a band's sound. If there's a specific vibe that the bass is producing, more probably notice than you realize.

 

[Quilbert]

Remember that power is needed for reserve clean headroom more that sheer volume.
You don't have to play them loud.

I have the Ashdown 'Little Bastard' 30W tube amp. It can hold its own surprisingly well with the right cab as long as the guitarists and drummer aren't too loud. It doesn't have much headroom so you have to turn it up to about 3'O Clock where there are traces of 'grind' but I like this, its sounds killer. After that it gets too distorted and looses power. When this happens I just use my Orange terror bass 500. I would love a 100W all tube amp. I think this would be enough.