Is there much difference in the Power section of the popular Class D Amps

[Engle]

I'm looking at components vs. all in one Bass head units. Each bass head manufacture has a pre-amp with their recipe for "tone". Mesa, Aguilar, Eden, SansAmp, Ampeg, Orange, Darkglass, MarkBass... However, the extra cost for the "power section" seems pricy. Most pre-amp versions of tone are $200-$400 with some discounts on the used markets. Yet when you add the 500 watt Class D circuts, most are $500+ more. It also seems like the typical Class-D curcuit boards are under $100 for 500 - 800 watts. So, does the membership think there is much difference between the 500 watt or 800 watt power sections of the top brands. How much do you really think is baked into the tone recipe due to the power section. Curious. Thanks in advance.

I think there is more engineering to the whole amp package than just combining a preamp and a power amp. It’s not baked in tone you’re getting in the power amp when you buy a particular bass amp, it’s how well the whole thing works on stage when you flip the power switch and start playing.

 

[agedhorse]

Some power amp implementations are power amp only and sine include additional (sometimes considerable) circuitry after the “power amp in” jack. It depends very much on the intent of the designer.

 

[GreyBeard]

but I'm not sure it would cost less or sound exactly the same

for example would a Mesa preamp + generic power amp cost less and sound identical to the equivalent Mesa head? Not sure...

I use a Mesa Subway preamp/DI with a rumble 500 head and an Ampeg pf500. I just plug the output from the pre into the FX return of either amp. I can't hear any difference but, that is me. Would it end up costing much less, I doubt it.

 

[Nephilymbass]

I'm looking at components vs. all in one Bass head units. Each bass head manufacture has a pre-amp with their recipe for "tone". Mesa, Aguilar, Eden, SansAmp, Ampeg, Orange, Darkglass, MarkBass... However, the extra cost for the "power section" seems pricy. Most pre-amp versions of tone are $200-$400 with some discounts on the used markets. Yet when you add the 500 watt Class D circuts, most are $500+ more. It also seems like the typical Class-D curcuit boards are under $100 for 500 - 800 watts. So, does the membership think there is much difference between the 500 watt or 800 watt power sections of the top brands. How much do you really think is baked into the tone recipe due to the power section. Curious. Thanks in advance.

I’ve basically gone full circle on this. Started with heads. Used pre amps and power amps for a long time. Ended Up using a head with couple pedals.

the reason I originally went to a pre amp power amp setup was for variety. I like bright extended low modern tones I’d get out of pre amps and heads from SWR and Avalon. But I also like more vintage and dirty tones that those clean pre amps didn’t really shine at. So I had super clean pres like the Avalon u5 and had dirtier more vintage sounding pres like the sans amp rbi. Eventually I started running darkglass pedals into the Avalon and that was a pretty cool combo. But the Avalon was a bit too clean. I don’t want my sound to be so clean every minor imperfection in my playing shines through. I ended up getting a Mesa subway rig and I feel it gets clean enough for me. As for dirtier and more vintage sounds. I just use pedals in front of the Mesa now

Pedals are fun, especially if you keep it reasonable and build a small pedalboard with just a few that isn’t a pain to carry around. I feel like when I was in that stage where I had multiple pre amps it was basically like I was in denial about what could be done with a regular bass head and just a couple pedals like a compressor and an overdrive. Now of course a pedal isn’t going to make a dirty amp sound cleaner. But if you have a reasonable clean sounding head you can always add dirt, compression, and LP and HP with pedals.

 

[Killing Floor]

Pro - longevity, consistent performance, warranty.

Con - what happens when you don’t start with the above.

 

[Hasty]

Once I could afford a Grace Designs Felix I went with two different sized powered cabinets.
It gives me the flexibility of having a MAS 1/8 for small rooms or a MAS 4x5.5 for big rooms.
Alternatively, I can swap out my Headway EDB-2 H.E. with either cabinet. Just my take.

I still kick myself for not buying a powered 1/8. The 16 and the 28 are amazing... but I just feel like that powered 18 would scratch that in between itch and not carrying an amp head would be just one less thing to worry about. Just like the AI Ten2 does for me, but smaller (yet bigger than the other).

Sigh... I think I have an amp/cab buying problem...

 

[musicmansf]

It:s silly to me that 'I can HEAR Class D' is now about to replace the old tubes vs. solid state argument, but then here it is. I haven't yet put it together how lighter, cheaper, and more powerful is somehow a problem for some people.

Whatever the 5% of perceived extra tone/sizzle I got out of an A/B power amp (or huge transformer) was, it's in no way worth the lugging, weight, and form factor.

 

[ardgedee]

Why not a Class D TUBE amp ?? best of both worlds right >> lol

AmpDiVa: Handcrafted Custom Made High Quality Class-D Vacuum Tube Amplifiers

They sure look interesting.

 

[BlueTalon]

AmpDiVa: Handcrafted Custom Made High Quality Class-D Vacuum Tube Amplifiers

They sure look interesting.
View attachment 4734913

They do indeed. That website will be worth bookmarking once they get the internet web page design thing figured out.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

I'm looking at components vs. all in one Bass head units. Each bass head manufacture has a pre-amp with their recipe for "tone". Mesa, Aguilar, Eden, SansAmp, Ampeg, Orange, Darkglass, MarkBass... However, the extra cost for the "power section" seems pricy. Most pre-amp versions of tone are $200-$400 with some discounts on the used markets. Yet when you add the 500 watt Class D circuts, most are $500+ more. It also seems like the typical Class-D curcuit boards are under $100 for 500 - 800 watts. So, does the membership think there is much difference between the 500 watt or 800 watt power sections of the top brands. How much do you really think is baked into the tone recipe due to the power section. Curious. Thanks in advance.

I know that back in 2010 when DNA came out with their DNA-1350 putting out 1,350 watts into 4Ω or 2Ω they mentioned that they used a newly patented (not a DNA patent) power section:

"The amplifier features a patented design with one cycle control loop technology, delivering a clean 1350 watts RMS of breathtaking musical quality audio sound into a 4 Ohm load."
​

This contrasted with the ICE class D power systems that David used in his WTX amps for Eden. So I think it's safe to say that they don't use the ICE power circuits.

Of course, I haven't a clue what "one cycle control loop technology" means, but I'm sure @agedhorse would. Supposedly was newly patented in 2009 or 2010.

My first experience years ago, when class D first came out and everyone used the ICE power, was that they sounded really good until they didn't and then they sounded terrible. My impression was that they didn't have the headroom that the class A/B amps had. Since then @agedhorse mentioned some of the various things you needed to tweak to tame those boards to eliminate the early onset of distortion. And, of course, he was working with that stuff way before we got them in our amps because they'd been used in the high-fidelity home audio field for years, which if I recall correctly is where he came from before designing bass gear. And that's why his Mesa class D amps sound so good and are so reliable.

We've come a long ways from the time that class D amps first hit musical instruments and I think most designers can make good sounding power sections out of the ICE circuits now but that wasn't the case back then. I presume ICE has made some changes too over the years, at least I hope so. In any case, class D amps now are far superior to the first time they made their entrance into the musical instrument market.

 

[agedhorse]

"One Cycle Control" is a technique developed (or first claimed) by Power Physics Inc. and has been licensed by several manufacturers. In practice, most if not all post feedback topologies probably fall under the looser definition of one control cycle, in the case of ICEPower their own patented technology in this area relates to their HCOM and M-COM modulator/control loop. They have ~20 patents in the area of class D amplification and technology development.

Ultimately, there are only a few big players in this area, responsible for the vast amount of technology that end product designers ultimately use.

 

[Hasty]

They do indeed. That website will be worth bookmarking once they get the internet web page design thing figured out.

I agree.

I feel like I just got "MySpaced" in some weird time warp.

 

[JPJ]

I think the OP and I are looking for the same thing (if I read the post correctly), and I've chatted with AgedHorse and PassinWind about this over the last year or so.

What I'm wishing/hoping someone would come out with (from one of the reliable US mfrs) is a super-small, relatively light weight (200-400 watt) Class D pure power stage with no fan/air cooled and all of the certs and extra tweaks and mods necessary to make it the safest and best sounding mini/travel amp possible at a relatively affordable price. Key here is to have something that has NO tone controls or anything that would be a tone tweaker, other than maybe a mute switch or "standby" switch. Any "tone shaping" would come from a preamp alone.

Uses:
Power amp to pair with any pre-amp (or a variety of preamps)
Fly rig
Home studio/home practice rig
Small gig rig
etc.

I'm familiar with the Sumo options (closest I've found so far) and the Demeter option, and using the effects loop or aux in is always an option, but no one in the bass community has come out with a product that ticks all of the boxes above at something around the $400-600 range, save for the Sumo line.

Maybe there just isn't a market for it.....or maybe it just isn't economically feasible (with certifications referenced above) here in the U.S.

 

[agedhorse]

From what I have seen, the market is not large enough for a dedicated power amp, making the end product more expensive than one with a preamp and a power amp input jack.

 

[mikeGJ]

I think the OP and I are looking for the same thing (if I read the post correctly), and I've chatted with AgedHorse and PassinWind about this over the last year or so.

What I'm wishing/hoping someone would come out with (from one of the reliable US mfrs) is a super-small, relatively light weight (200-400 watt) Class D pure power stage with no fan/air cooled and all of the certs and extra tweaks and mods necessary to make it the safest and best sounding mini/travel amp possible at a relatively affordable price. Key here is to have something that has NO tone controls or anything that would be a tone tweaker, other than maybe a mute switch or "standby" switch. Any "tone shaping" would come from a preamp alone.

Uses:
Power amp to pair with any pre-amp (or a variety of preamps)
Fly rig
Home studio/home practice rig
Small gig rig
etc.

I'm familiar with the Sumo options (closest I've found so far) and the Demeter option, and using the effects loop or aux in is always an option, but no one in the bass community has come out with a product that ticks all of the boxes above at something around the $400-600 range, save for the Sumo line.

Maybe there just isn't a market for it.....or maybe it just isn't economically feasible (with certifications referenced above) here in the U.S.

You missed: Jule Simone 500.

 

[ardgedee]

They do indeed. That website will be worth bookmarking once they get the internet web page design thing figured out.

I agree.

I feel like I just got "MySpaced" in some weird time warp.

I've been doing contract web development for a long time now so my take was that it was rough-hewn but did its job far better than the average small business website.

The lack of autoplaying video, massive overhead of client-side content scripting, flying text and graphics, prominent social media embeds, and other attributes of modern corporate websites made it appealing. For all its flaws, it told you their products and what they did, the whys and the hows without having to poke around or guess at the navigation or endure biz-speak or marketing spin.

 

[Hasty]

I've been doing contract web development for a long time now so my take was that it was rough-hewn but did its job far better than the average small business website.

The lack of autoplaying video, massive overhead of client-side content scripting, flying text and graphics, prominent social media embeds, and other attributes of modern corporate websites made it appealing. For all its flaws, it told you their products and what they did, the whys and the hows without having to poke around or guess at the navigation or endure biz-speak or marketing spin.

did you go to the page with the 97 tiled video demos? It took forever to load and basically had a video of every single person capably able to physically hold a guitar. Several were just videos of people tuning the guitar with terrible audio. That was the part that made me think of MySpace.

I don’t need fancy scripting. Just a reasonably laid out idea of what they offer that’s not crammed onto a single page with linear text. Layouts like that put me at odds with my neuro-divergent state.

 

[azureblue]

GK uses an ICE 125sx2. This is a stereo 125WPC power amp plus it's own power supply, which can also drive a preamp. There are stereophiles using this for home stereo use, and there are complete housing kits available for it. It will make about 225wps at 4 ohms, and, although I have not tried it, it can be strapped. So it would be a good beginning - you could use a stomp box to drive it..

 

[SJan3]

Why not a Class D TUBE amp ?? best of both worlds right >> lol

Here is your amp: Milkman Half n Half tube preamp/class D Poweramp.

 

[waveman]

From what I have seen, the market is not large enough for a dedicated power amp, making the end product more expensive than one with a preamp and a power amp input jack.

So why not just repackage the amp as a power amp and bypass the pre?