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Jack Bruce has gone nuts!

#41
It's always entertaining when titans clash...
Funny about musicians ego's ... always vying to be numba juan.

Musicians have been talking smack about fellow muses since time immemorial.
Actors,Painters...etc have been known to snipe from time to time as well.
Athletes,well that's de rigeur...

Echoes through time.

Compositional competition...helps make the world go round.

It's when people stop talking about you that matters the most.

No such thing as bad publicity...

Love this stuff.
 
#42
I've no love for Zep, and have always considered their adulation to be way in excess of what the music actually deserves. Downbeat Magazine had an annual award category of "Talent deserving wider recognition". Zep is a perfect example of "Recognition deserving wider talent".

The weak links are the two stars. Page is a sloppy guitarist, but without the emotional connection to make up for it. He's a great producer, came up with some great riffs (but despite guitards' opinion, a riff is NOT a song), but the SONGS just don't hold up. Plant's singing must be an aquired taste and his stage presence always seemed to be a pale imitation of Daltrey. Actually, I like Robert Plant's solo work quite a lot, but Zep is just so much noise.

The critical factor for me however is that there's seemingly little interplay between Page/JPJ/Bonzo. They're a rock band with a guitarist noodling over a static rhythm section. As great and melodic as Jones is, it's not the same sort of improvisational conversations between musicians that Cream is. And so it descend into guitar diarrhea.

Add in Jack's dark sense of humor and this becomes pretty interesting to me.

Of course, sycophantic Zep worship also kicks in for a lot of folks; discussing Zep is like discussing SRV- lots of folks don't want to have them discussed unless it's worshipping them.

jte
 
#43
Ric5 said:
Ginger baker is a better drummer than John Bonham.
Click to expand...

Leaving aside the general silliness of saying who's better and who's worse, I strongly agree disagree. Bonham was incredibly brilliant as a drummer. Ginger Baker is certainly no slouch. Bonham was far more influential and I don't think that can be denied. Listen to something like "Fool in the Rain" - it's incredible. That combination of finesse and power haven't been equaled since.

KO
 
#44
Well, that's Jack for ya. He's a known hothead and his own worst enemy.
I'm a long time Jack Bruce fanatic. His playing on Crossroads (Wheels of Fire, live), Badge, White Room (live) is way, way up there.
Nonetheless, he's nuts to disparage Zeppelin like that. Cream was only around for 2 or so years and though they broke a hell of a lot of ground, they didn't branch out too much. Zeppelin was a far more diverse and textured band. Compositionally, Zeppelin wrecks Cream. If Jacks going to be critical, how many times is he going to milk that White Room / Tales Of Brave Ulysses chord progression? I swear he's used it in at least 3 of his post-Cream albums.
On so many levels, Zeppelin is simply in another league from Cream:
Exhibit A: John Paul Jones and Bonham injecting the funk into (what was then) heavy rock - brilliant.
B: Jimmy Page was a far more diverse guitarist with far more on the ball compositionally and chord-wise than Clapton. I'm sure Clapton would be the first to admit this. Clapton took the blues to probably the highest level of refinement with Cream but he was/is very bound and restricted to that and Jimmy Page was a damn, damn great blues/rock guitarist in his own right (like maybe the best) and far more diverse and dynamic. In terms of being "sloppy", Jimmy Page played a HELL of a lot faster at times than Clapton ever did but it was always dynamic and musical. He pushed the envelope and played it rough at the edges but I thought that was great. He was never OFF. His speed added dynamics adn excitement to Zeppelin's sound. It was never monotonous, non-musical speed.
C: John Paul Jones is a more diverse and (in my opinion) accomplished bassist than Jack. Again, Zeppelin branched out and accomplished much more than Cream. Jones also developed himself keyboard-wise, getting into the Rhodes piano, Clavinet and Mellotron and integrating those instruments into Zeppelin compositionally. jack is a good keyboardist in his own right but he didn't leverage it to the level of Jones. That's really Jack's story - he didn't accomplish as much.
D: Zeppelin had two very on-the-ball composers: Page and Jones. Those guys know their music and were amazingly creative, deep and prolific for a good long run.
E. Zeppelin was a more subtle band than Cream.
Look, it's been 30-40 years and the verdict is in: we're talking two titans here but Zeppelin exceeded Cream. The fans and musicians aren't stupid. Zeppelin sold more records, are more respected (by fans and musicians alike) and their music has stood the test of time. There's been a lot of time passed and the dust has settled. Zeppelin stands as the premier respected rock supergroup. They built on the lead that Hendrix and Cream layed down but they took it farther and wider.
I am a HUGE and long-time Cream FANATIC but I can go on and on. Jack was spouting off, being Jack. His personality (and the fact that Ginger could hardly stand it) is why Cream didn't last.
And BTW, so what if Zeppelin down-tuned for their reunion? Can anybody expect Robert Plant pushing age 60 to sing those incredibly high vocal parts he did in his 20's?
 
#46
KPAX said:
Well, that's Jack for ya. He's a known hothead and his own worst enemy.
I'm a long time Jack Bruce fanatic. His playing on Crossroads (Wheels of Fire, live), Badge, White Room (live) is way, way up there.
Nonetheless, he's nuts to disparage Zeppelin like that. Cream was only around for 2 or so years and though they broke a hell of a lot of ground, they didn't branch out too much. Zeppelin was a far more diverse and textured band. Compositionally, Zeppelin wrecks Cream. If Jacks going to be critical, how many times is he going to milk that White Room / Tales Of Brave Ulysses chord progression? I swear he's used it in at least 3 of his post-Cream albums.
On so many levels, Zeppelin is simply in another league from Cream:
Exhibit A: John Paul Jones and Bonham injecting the funk into (what was then) heavy rock - brilliant.
B: Jimmy Page was a far more diverse guitarist with far more on the ball compositionally and chord-wise than Clapton. I'm sure Clapton would be the first to admit this. Clapton took the blues to probably the highest level of refinement with Cream but he was/is very bound and restricted to that and Jimmy Page was a damn, damn great blues/rock guitarist in his own right (like maybe the best) and far more diverse and dynamic.
C: John Paul Jones is a more diverse and (in my opinion) accomplished bassist than Jack. Again, Zeppelin branched out and accomplished so much more than Cream.
D: Zeppelin had two very on-the-ball composers: Page and Jones. Those guys know their music and were amazingly creative and prolific for a good long run.
E. Zeppelin was a more subtle band than Cream.
I am a HUGE and long-time Cream FANATIC but I can go on and on. Jack was spouting off, being Jack. His personality (and the fact that Ginger could hardly stand it) is why Cream didn't last.
So what if Zeppelin down-tuned for their reunion? Can anybody expect Robert Plant pushing age 60 to sing those incredibly high vocal parts he did in his 20's?
Click to expand...

Are you sure you're not confusing Cream with Foghat? :D
 
#47
I cannot believe the responses to this! Every time I discuss my lack of "adoration" for anything LZ with friends, the responses are less than civil. When I read the JB statements, I expected to see long tirades from the LZ faithful, but not so.

Thanks for letting me know I am not alone...
 
#48
Clearly stirring the pot, and he did it well, just look at this thread!:rollno: Not to mention the free "Jack promotion"! already alluded to.
Plus all I'm seeing are typed words from a Magazine. No voice, facial expressions, timing, gestures etc. It makes me wonder if a certain style of humor has been lost through the generations.
 
#49
12bass said:
IMO, Page's talents are more in composition than in technique.... and I don't see a whole lot of distance between Cream and Zeppelin as far as composition goes. If anything, I think Zeppelin branched out more from the blues.
Click to expand...

Seriously?!?!
Name one Zep tune that can stand up to "Lay Down Sally" or "Change The World"?!?!?!?

:hiding:































kidding, just kidding
 
#51
C: John Paul Jones is a more diverse and (in my opinion) accomplished bassist than Jack. Again, Zeppelin branched out and accomplished much more than Cream. Jones also developed himself keyboard-wise, getting into the Rhodes piano, Clavinet and Mellotron and integrating those instruments into Zeppelin compositionally. jack is a good keyboardist in his own right but he didn't leverage it to the level of Jones. That's really Jack's story - he didn't accomplish as much.
Click to expand...

(pedro rubs eyes in disbelief.)
 
#53
Think about it, it could just be a ploy to drum up attention for Cream and LZ. Fabricate a conflict, create drama, get people polarized, and you generate a lot more attention and product consumption for both parties than either would by acting on their own. It's one of the oldest tricks in the book, used by music papers, beer macrobrewers, fast food chains, soft drink companies, governments/political parties, etc.
 
#54
pedro said:
(pedro rubs eyes in disbelief.)
Click to expand...

I'm with you, Pedro!
A close look at Jack's resume makes John Paul Jones look like Sid Vicious. (Tony Williams Lifetime; subbing for Percy Heath in the Modern Jazz Quartet; doing avant-garde stuff with Carla Bley, Kip Hanrahan, et al.; his own band with Larry Coryell and Mitch Mitchell; jeez... I could go on and ON...)

As far as Led Zep branching out more from the blues than Cream did, did they ever write anything like Jack's "As You Said"? (Just for one example.)
 
#56
Not that anyone cares what I think, but I don't see much similarity between the bands styles at all. I saw both on their 1st U.S. tours. Cream was blues rock band and Zep was a heavy metal band with blues and pop influences. The Zep show was far better as far as production and visuals. The interplay between Eric and Jack was more the point of their show and it was impressive to say the least. Jack is right, Eric is better, but what is the point? I think Jack is a nut and probably responsible for the break up of Cream, but you gotta love the old fart!
 
#58
I'm with you, Pedro!
Click to expand...

Thank God I'm not alone, and FWIW, I think the world of JPJ.

A close look at Jack's resume makes John Paul Jones look like Sid Vicious. (Tony Williams Lifetime; subbing for Percy Heath in the Modern Jazz Quartet; doing avant-garde stuff with Carla Bley, Kip Hanrahan, et al.; his own band with Larry Coryell and Mitch Mitchell; jeez... I could go on and ON...)
Click to expand...

Yup.
 
#59
kelleysdad said:
Not that anyone cares what I think, but I don't see much similarity between the bands styles at all. I saw both on their 1st U.S. tours. Cream was blues rock band and Zep was a heavy metal band with blues and pop influences. The Zep show was far better as far as production and visuals. The interplay between Eric and Jack was more the point of their show and it was impressive to say the least. Jack is right, Eric is better, but what is the point? I think Jack is a nut and probably responsible for the break up of Cream, but you gotta love the old fart!
Click to expand...

And, I would submit that Cream also had a serious jazz component, plus some classical influences (showing up subtly in Jack's bass parts as well as some of his writing). Zep was much more of a pop band (in the broader sense).
 

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