Jack Bruce has gone nuts!

[SGD Lutherie]

I couldn't believe it either! Jack is an astounding keyboardist in my book, almost as good as Matthew Fisher, Jon Lord etc.

And let's not forget he's a great 'cellist and he plays guitar too!

Jack is a talented fellow. So is JPJ.

 

[Sneckumhaw]

Yeah Pedro, really? I think we heard you the FIRST time.

Obviously he didn't.

 

[mildbill]

I find myself amused and sad with this thread. It is fun to have the ol' "my favorite band is better than your favorite band" argument. However, the sadness lies in that there are no new, young bands that bring up any of this emotion. We have to wait for some sixty-year old former rock star to do or say something cool or outrageous. These people were old when I was a kid and now are grandparents. Sigh...rock is dead.

 

[fesem]

No one has mentioned Jack as a composer, or if so I missed it. What about his first two solo albums, Songs for a Tailor and Harmony Row, fantastic songs, not to mention bass and piano and singing. Still I am not into slagging off other bands, if he was serious.

 

[KPAX]

Traditional in that he never let the groove down? I'll buy that. Zeppelin had groove.
Underneath the hard rock was funky, melodic, rhythmically cool, intricate American R&B inspired groove.
Hendrix was going in that direction with Billy towards the end but JP Jones and Bonham had it in droves.

Traditional in that they weren't all involved in a free form improvisation. Traditional in that he mainly held down and anchored the corners of the song while Page did his soloing. In this respect, LZ resembled more the traditional guitar oriented rock/blues band.

 

[KPAX]

Do you guys have much live Zeppelin? Not exactly safe and plenty improvisational.

I'll add another $0.02 to that as well! It's all chance music. Some times it all clicks. King Crimson was like that in the 70's with Wetton and Bruford. Some nights were magic, and other nights were less not.

But if you stick to safe stuff, you wont make magic happen.

To me, Bruce was Cream!

 

[KPAX]

Hey, they were both great.
But Cream never got their act together like Zeppelin. Personality problems made it unstable and Cream's management (Stigwood) was terrible. He burned Cream out and fleeced them to invest in (good God!) the Bee Gees. Cream didn't have the writing of Zeppelin. Bruce had interesting ideas and ability but he didn't have a comparable partner, backing or vision to really develop the band. They had to do a LOT of covers (brilliantly reworked) and live material in their albums to fill them out. Also, partially due to the early times, Cream's albums were poorly produced. Cream had loads of talent but not much maturity, know how and proper backing. In a sense, Cream was a brilliant train wreck.
Zeppelin had fabulous management (Peter Grant) and Page and Jones knew EXACTLY what they were doing when in came to albums. They had LOADS of studio know how, maturity, songwriting ability, arranging, etc. and on top of Page and Jones' refined talent, creativity and chops, they had the raw talent and creativity of Plant and Bonham to boot. As these things go, Zeppelin did everything right for a good long run, truly developed their full potential and left MASTERPIECE rock albums. Zeppelin got off the dime and made it happen like probably no other hard rock band has. They REALIZED their (huge) potential. That's the difference.
No doubt Zepp built on Cream and Hendrix's foundation. But NOBODY can disparage Zeppelin. They were just TOO GOOD for anyone to do that. If Zeppelin isn't great, no rock band is great. But IMO, there ARE great rock bands and Zeppelin is at the very rare top of the heap, with Cream close by and very few others.

Not exactly. Page and JPJ were studio musicians, and of course Page was in the (New) Yardbirds, which also had Beck and Clapton at one time.

Clapton was also in John Mayall's Bluesbreakers, and was way more famous than Page. A fan wrote "Clapton is God" on the wall of an underground station, which pretty much summed it up. Bruce and Baker were part of the Graham Bond Organisation, which also had John Mclaughlin on guitar for a while.

Cream was together from 1966 to '68, and Zep didn't form until '68.

So Page followed Clapton to the Yardbirds, and I think it can be argued that Cream set the stage for loud rock bands that Zep continued.

Wikipedia sums it up thusly:



So without Cream, there might not have been a Zeppelin as we know it. Same can be said of the band Small Faces. Steve Marriott was very much the inspiration for the sound of Zeppelin, and they even wanted him in the band. Small Faces did the Willie Dixon song "You Need Lovin'" which is where Page got "Whole Lotta Love"

When Marriott heard Zep's version he said:

So looking at it from Jack Bruce's perspective, he was there first, and set he stage, and bands like Zep were followers, as well as contemporaries. But Cream was arguably the very first "Super group".

They are both great and important. Bruce could play circles around JPJ though.

 

[Surprise Panda!]

I used to have respect for him but now....

 

[Eric Perry]

Hey, they were both great.
But Cream never got their act together like Zeppelin. Personality problems made it unstable and Cream's management (Stigwood) was terrible. He burned Cream out and fleeced them to invest in (good God!) the Bee Gees. Cream didn't have the writing of Zeppelin. Bruce had interesting ideas and ability but he didn't have a comparable partner, backing or vision to really develop the band. They had to do a LOT of covers (brilliantly reworked) and live material in their albums to fill them out. Also, partially due to the early times, Cream's albums were poorly produced. Cream had loads of talent but not much maturity, know how and proper backing. In a sense, Cream was a brilliant train wreck.
Zeppelin had fabulous management (Peter Grant) and Page and Jones knew EXACTLY what they were doing when in came to albums. They had LOADS of studio know how, maturity, songwriting ability, arranging, etc. and on top of Page and Jones' refined talent, creativity and chops, they had the raw talent and creativity of Plant and Bonham to boot. As these things go, Zeppelin did everything right for a good long run, truly developed their full potential and left MASTERPIECE rock albums. Zeppelin got off the dime and made it happen like probably no other hard rock band has. They REALIZED their (huge) potential. That's the difference.
No doubt Zepp built on Cream and Hendrix's foundation. But NOBODY can disparage Zeppelin. They were just TOO GOOD for anyone to do that. If Zeppelin isn't great, no rock band is great. But IMO, there ARE great rock bands and Zeppelin is at the very rare top of the heap, with Cream close by and very few others.

Great post.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

If Zeppelin isn't great, no rock band is great. But IMO, there ARE great rock bands and Zeppelin is at the very rare top of the heap, with Cream close by and very few others.

See, I was never a big Zep fan, even though I was in a cover band back in the 70's that did like 50 Zep songs! I had a chance to see Zep back in the 70's, and didn't bother. I regret that now, but they just weren't my favorite band at the time. I did see Deep Purple three times, and Yes 5 times, and ELP 4 times, Tull... etc. Lots of good rock bands back then.

But yes, Zep was a archetype for many bands to follow.

Cream was never meant to me a long term project anyway.

Houses of the Holy is one of my favorite all time albums.

 

[Hughsie]

From Planet Rock's newspage - it's funny, he starts out excusing himself and then goes on to restate much of what he was originally saying! Zep rocked, their reunion sounded great, but I love Jack Bruce a little more each day!

>Was Jack Bruce Joking?
6th November 2008

After Jack Bruce’s comments about Zeppelin on Monday night at the Classic Rock Awards, some people suspected that he may have had his tongue firmly in his cheek. It turns out that they may have been right

Speaking to the JJ & Lynne Morning Show on 94.7 WCSX in Detroit, Jack says that he was having fun with the Press, although he does have another semi-dig at Jimmy Page in the process.

"I was just having some fun with the press gallery really…being fairly tongue in cheek…. The thing about Zeppelin is obviously its a little bit of jealousy on my part or more than a little bit because the audience was created by Cream and Jimi Hendrix…this sort of very large audience…then Zeppelin came along and had a very easy ride in that way. We were the pioneers and pioneers don’t always get the recognition they deserve. On the other hand, let’s face it: Jimmy Page ain’t no Eric Clapton…no matter what anybody thinks.”

He also added, jokingly “The only decent guy…the one good guy in that band is dead…so what are you gonna do?...The trouble is if you say anything about the establishment…In Britain you mustn’t criticize the Queen or Led Zeppelin”

 

[dougjwray]

Once again, Jack is 100% correct.

 

[JTE]

The trouble is if you say anything about the establishment…In Britain you mustn’t criticize the Queen or Led Zeppelin”

Now THAT's brilliant!! It's like guitar websites- don't criticize Zep or Stevie Ray.

Now here's a common comment I don't understand. Led Zepplin as great songwriters?!? Other than some nice riffs what songs are great? Certainly not that over-blown pointless drivel "Stairway to Heaven". It's a terrible song out of which they made a GREAT record. But the song doesn't stand alone from that particular performance and recording. Musically it's pretty lame except for the great bit of contrary motion in the acoustic guitar part. After that it descends into a pointless vamp. And the lyrics are awful. Plus it builds up to this great bombastic ending and all Plant could come up with to for that pseudo-majestic ending is "... to be a rock and not to roll"?? That makes John Anderson's lyrics seem coherent!

jte

 

[SGD Lutherie]

That makes John Anderson's lyrics seem coherent!

I'm a big Yes fan... but nothing makes Jon Anderson's lyrics seem coherent!

"A seasoned witch could call you from the depths of your disgrace
And rearrange your liver to the solid mental grace"

I'll assume the words just sound good together.

 

[kelleysdad]

Certainly not that over-blown pointless drivel "Stairway to Heaven". It's a terrible song out of which they made a GREAT record. But the song doesn't stand alone from that particular performance and recording. Musically it's pretty lame except for the great bit of contrary motion in the acoustic guitar part.

The intro was stolen from Spirit, whom they toured with prior to recording SWTH. I believe the song they lifted it from is Taurus.

 

[BassScum]

Now THAT's brilliant!! It's like guitar websites- don't criticize Zep or Stevie Ray.

Now here's a common comment I don't understand. Led Zepplin as great songwriters?!? Other than some nice riffs what songs are great? Certainly not that over-blown pointless drivel "Stairway to Heaven". It's a terrible song out of which they made a GREAT record. But the song doesn't stand alone from that particular performance and recording. Musically it's pretty lame except for the great bit of contrary motion in the acoustic guitar part. After that it descends into a pointless vamp. And the lyrics are awful. Plus it builds up to this great bombastic ending and all Plant could come up with to for that pseudo-majestic ending is "... to be a rock and not to roll"?? That makes John Anderson's lyrics seem coherent!

jte

To each his own. You will never convince the millions world wide that love Zep, that Zep sucks. Look at the radio air play they have gotten over the years. Obviously not everyone thinks they suck. I don't know how old you are but if you were around during the 70's you should already be aware why people like them.

 

[dougjwray]

Now THAT's brilliant!! It's like guitar websites- don't criticize Zep or Stevie Ray.

Now here's a common comment I don't understand. Led Zepplin as great songwriters?!? Other than some nice riffs what songs are great? Certainly not that over-blown pointless drivel "Stairway to Heaven". It's a terrible song out of which they made a GREAT record. But the song doesn't stand alone from that particular performance and recording. Musically it's pretty lame except for the great bit of contrary motion in the acoustic guitar part. After that it descends into a pointless vamp. And the lyrics are awful. Plus it builds up to this great bombastic ending and all Plant could come up with to for that pseudo-majestic ending is "... to be a rock and not to roll"?? That makes John Anderson's lyrics seem coherent!

jte

Great post.
(Actually, the very end is: "And... she's buy-i-inGUH stairway [little sob] ... [oh-so-pretentious pause]... to hea-vu-UNN...")

 

[Lazylion]

"Stairway to Heaven"... builds up to this great bombastic ending and all Plant could come up with to for that pseudo-majestic ending is "... to be a rock and not to roll"?? That makes John Anderson's lyrics seem coherent!

I'm a big Yes fan... but nothing makes Jon Anderson's lyrics seem coherent!

No, I'm sure he meant John Anderson.

Sample lyric:
I wish I had a bass boat and a Z-28.
But I guess that stuff'll have to wait.
'Cause I'm saving on a washer and a wedding ring,
I want this love to be a lasting thing.
Right at the top, that's where you rank:
Honey, your love's better than money in the bank.

Seems pretty clear to me...

 

[dougjwray]

To each his own. You will never convince the millions world wide that love Zep, that Zep sucks. Look at the radio air play they have gotten over the years. Obviously not everyone thinks they suck. I don't know how old you are but if you were around during the 70's you should already be aware why people like them.

I was around during the '60s, and in the early '70s Led Zeppelin was a major indication to me that things were going downhill! (Stevie Wonder and the Allman Brothers Band got me through those dark days.)
But, yeah, this is all for fun. No point in even attempting to change people's tastes. No desire to.

 

[David Jayne]

While not necessarily agreeing with your specific assessments on 'I'm So Glad' or 'Train Time' it is (IMO) entirely probable that when a player is pushing the envelope as much as Bruce (and many, many others before and after him) did, that you will occassionally come up w/ stuff that isn't very good. But without pushing and risking the screw ups you also miss out on the truly great stuff too.

My $.02.

Agreed. Listen to practically anything by John Scofield.