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Jaco clip causing some controversy

#303
Thanks JimK for those db recollections because the number of my downbeats (no pun intended) is scarce, but I found one more, Feb 22, 1979.
There is a review of the WR concert at Santa Monica Civic. At first Mr. Gone (spelled Z-a-w-i-n-u-l) album is called pompous preening and sterilized goose-step strutting which I totally agree, but the concert of the Mr. Gone material is described very energetic. Of Jaco's solo spot reviewer writes: 'He chorded on bass; he turned harmonics into cathedrals of bells; he threw in a fist-full of humorous asides.'
On the other hand in the same issue Percy Heath (bass player of MJQ fame) gives harsh comments on Punk Jazz in the Blinfold Test saying: 'To me, this flurry of notes and that style of playing is a great exhibition of facility and honest dedication to practising runs and licks but I appreciate the more melodic. Take a breath in there. Pause in the sentence.' He had earlier told about the difference between poetry and the ability to say fast the alphabet forwards and backwards. Also very true.

I understand that some folks are fed up Jaco-this/Jaco-that threads, but I would like to think that this thread is mandatory only in North Korea, if Kim-something is a huge Jaco fan.

Now in the bad mood I'd like to state a blasphemy-like final question without any hesitation or fear because concealed by anonomity of highest decree, so straight to bulls-eye.
Err.. so what do think about Jaco's ability to swing?

Groove and funk are nowadays so inflated terms, so I try to avoid them. Hard to determine swing; doesn't exist in art rock; must avoid in prog rock; essential in older black music.
Yes, I know, there are now some snappy fingers tapping keyboards about Come On, Come Over, Chicken et all.
Heard but not impressed by their swing content. There are hundreds of scriptures of his fabulous harmonic mastery but not much about his relation to the basic pulse of a song. His RnB playing is precise but does it swing? All this against my modest jazz, soul and funk background so the fault might be between my own ears.

I know that Jaco never intended to be a mere pocket player. Sometimes I am hearing him to be a few bars in the pocket and the he flies away.

I'm so sorry if I have offended the more sensitive souls of Jaco fans with my opinions of Jaco's rhythmic side. As an epic Coltrane fan I know how it hurts when somebody doubts your hero's perfection, with grounds or not.
 
#305
PahaPeikko said:
Thanks JimK for those db recollections because the number of my downbeats (no pun intended) is scarce, but I found one more, Feb 22, 1979.
There is a review of the WR concert at Santa Monica Civic. At first Mr. Gone (spelled Z-a-w-i-n-u-l) album is called pompous preening and sterilized goose-step strutting which I totally agree, but the concert of the Mr. Gone material is described very energetic. Of Jaco's solo spot reviewer writes: 'He chorded on bass; he turned harmonics into cathedrals of bells; he threw in a fist-full of humorous asides.'
On the other hand in the same issue Percy Heath (bass player of MJQ fame) gives harsh comments on Punk Jazz in the Blinfold Test saying: 'To me, this flurry of notes and that style of playing is a great exhibition of facility and honest dedication to practising runs and licks but I appreciate the more melodic. Take a breath in there. Pause in the sentence.' He had earlier told about the difference between poetry and the ability to say fast the alphabet forwards and backwards. Also very true.

I understand that some folks are fed up Jaco-this/Jaco-that threads, but I would like to think that this thread is mandatory only in North Korea, if Kim-something is a huge Jaco fan.

Now in the bad mood I'd like to state a blasphemy-like final question without any hesitation or fear because concealed by anonomity of highest decree, so straight to bulls-eye.
Err.. so what do think about Jaco's ability to swing?

Groove and funk are nowadays so inflated terms, so I try to avoid them. Hard to determine swing; doesn't exist in art rock; must avoid in prog rock; essential in older black music.
Yes, I know, there are now some snappy fingers tapping keyboards about Come On, Come Over, Chicken et all.
Heard but not impressed by their swing content. There are hundreds of scriptures of his fabulous harmonic mastery but not much about his relation to the basic pulse of a song. His RnB playing is precise but does it swing? All this against my modest jazz, soul and funk background so the fault might be between my own ears.

I know that Jaco never intended to be a mere pocket player. Sometimes I am hearing him to be a few bars in the pocket and the he flies away.

I'm so sorry if I have offended the more sensitive souls of Jaco fans with my opinions of Jaco's rhythmic side. As an epic Coltrane fan I know how it hurts when somebody doubts your hero's perfection, with grounds or not.
Click to expand...

Some folks think there are sensitive, non reasonable Jaco lovers who will not budge. When all we were really after is a less than positive comment with some substance. Well done..
 
#306
Here's a clip of Jaco with Pat Metheny and Bobby Moses in a club in Boston prior to the Bright Size Life album. They're playing All The Things You Are, a Jazz Standard. One of the things I remember about this is reading in Bill Milkowski's book that Jaco said he didn't know the tune, which caused Moses some concern. He then glanced at the lead sheet, put it down and played from memory. Bob Moses said it was as if he immediately memorized it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkl3vjqpvxc
Before he was in Weather Report, Jaco was playing with the heaviest Jazz Cats in South Florida, including Ira Sullivan, Vince Maggio, Ron Miller, Joe Diorio, Steve Bagby and the Castellano Brothers. If he hadn't been able to swing like a mofo he wouldn't have lasted long there.
A gripe I have about the Jaco-troll junk here and on Youtube alike is that no one takes the time to really get to know more about the player before they pontificate. I had the luxury of knowing Jaco and hearing him many, many times (and even played bass once while he manned the drums as the U of M Concert Jazz Band read down Domingo-scary moment in my life) but many have not. As flawed as it is, Bill Milkowski's biography should be required reading for any bassist much like Standing in The Shadows of Motown or the autobiography of Pops Foster. Ditto for Portrait of Jaco:The Early Years. To assess a player from random Youtube clips and comments reminds me of the fable of The Blind Men and The Elephant.
 
#308
Roy Vogt said:
Here's a clip of Jaco with Pat Metheny and Bobby Moses in a club in Boston prior to the Bright Size Life album. They're playing All The Things You Are, a Jazz Standard. One of the things I remember about this is reading in Bill Milkowski's book that Jaco said he didn't know the tune, which caused Moses some concern. He then glanced at the lead sheet, put it down and played from memory. Bob Moses said it was as if he immediately memorized it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkl3vjqpvxc
Before he was in Weather Report, Jaco was playing with the heaviest Jazz Cats in South Florida, including Ira Sullivan, Vince Maggio, Ron Miller, Joe Diorio, Steve Bagby and the Castellano Brothers. If he hadn't been able to swing like a mofo he wouldn't have lasted long there.
A gripe I have about the Jaco-troll junk here and on Youtube alike is that no one takes the time to really get to know more about the player before they pontificate. I had the luxury of knowing Jaco and hearing him many, many times (and even played bass once while he manned the drums as the U of M Concert Jazz Band read down Domingo-scary moment in my life) but many have not. As flawed as it is, Bill Milkowski's biography should be required reading for any bassist much like Standing in The Shadows of Motown or the autobiography of Pops Foster. Ditto for Portrait of Jaco:The Early Years. To assess a player from random Youtube clips and comments reminds me of the fable of The Blind Men and The Elephant.
Click to expand...

Thank you, Roy. Really great comments. With music, our playing won't mean much if we don't LISTEN. The same goes with critical argument (which I have studied). Studying and listening are required to have meaningful contribution to the subject at hand.
 
#314
PahaPeikko said:
Thanks JimK for those db recollections because the number of my downbeats (no pun intended) is scarce, but I found one more, Feb 22, 1979.
There is a review of the WR concert at Santa Monica Civic. At first Mr. Gone (spelled Z-a-w-i-n-u-l) album is called pompous preening and sterilized goose-step strutting which I totally agree, but the concert of the Mr. Gone material is described very energetic. Of Jaco's solo spot reviewer writes: 'He chorded on bass; he turned harmonics into cathedrals of bells; he threw in a fist-full of humorous asides.'
On the other hand in the same issue Percy Heath (bass player of MJQ fame) gives harsh comments on Punk Jazz in the Blinfold Test saying: 'To me, this flurry of notes and that style of playing is a great exhibition of facility and honest dedication to practising runs and licks but I appreciate the more melodic. Take a breath in there. Pause in the sentence.' He had earlier told about the difference between poetry and the ability to say fast the alphabet forwards and backwards. Also very true.

I understand that some folks are fed up Jaco-this/Jaco-that threads, but I would like to think that this thread is mandatory only in North Korea, if Kim-something is a huge Jaco fan.

Now in the bad mood I'd like to state a blasphemy-like final question without any hesitation or fear because concealed by anonomity of highest decree, so straight to bulls-eye.
Err.. so what do think about Jaco's ability to swing?

Groove and funk are nowadays so inflated terms, so I try to avoid them. Hard to determine swing; doesn't exist in art rock; must avoid in prog rock; essential in older black music.
Yes, I know, there are now some snappy fingers tapping keyboards about Come On, Come Over, Chicken et all.
Heard but not impressed by their swing content. There are hundreds of scriptures of his fabulous harmonic mastery but not much about his relation to the basic pulse of a song. His RnB playing is precise but does it swing? All this against my modest jazz, soul and funk background so the fault might be between my own ears.

I know that Jaco never intended to be a mere pocket player. Sometimes I am hearing him to be a few bars in the pocket and the he flies away.

I'm so sorry if I have offended the more sensitive souls of Jaco fans with my opinions of Jaco's rhythmic side. As an epic Coltrane fan I know how it hurts when somebody doubts your hero's perfection, with grounds or not.
Click to expand...

Best post so far IMO. Great question related to poetry vs, alphabet. "It don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing." +1 on your Coltrane comment!
 
#315
I'm sorry Ron. I didn't know that you had such a close relationship with Jaco. And what comes to my opinions be aware that I'm much lesser musician and especially theorist than you.

Music is such an abstract artform, deviations of air preassure which then are processed in the brains, better or worse, but no absolute truth can be found.

I've got here some you tube links to present what I'm after with this swing thing.

Here Paul Jackson plays funk jazz.

 
#316
Milk said:
what I mean I suppose is that music is not a cerebral thing to me. When you start to construct a song you're writing based entirely on how many key changes there should be and what kind of scales you should be using and what time signature should you alternate through and so on, you've made music into a mainly cerebral thing. And if you feel you can only enjoy it by understanding precisely how every note in the song relates to one another, when youre "clever" enough to see how "clever" the musician is being, then you've made essentially art that cannot be related to by anyone except a certain "elite" which I find defeats the purpose of making art (call me a populist).
Click to expand...

Sorry for replying so late.

I am skeptical that anybody who makes it through the cultural gauntlet to the point that anybody here has heard of them actually works that way, even the poster children for advanced music theory that I mentioned. I suppose there could be some self absorbed people in academia that spend some time in that type of mental zone, before weeding it out of themselves or having themselves weeded out of the field of music.

The only guy I can think of that I have ever personally met that kind of sounded like this was fresh out of school with a degree, and he wrote some laughable stuff. He seemed to think that songs should modulate keys about every 4 bars, no matter what. His recurring transposed melodies would make Sondheim grumble about audience patience. But still, even that guy - in his mind he thought it was good sounding music, and he was doing these naively optimistic, earnest lyrics that showed that for all his faults - and his music was largely comprised of faults - he was trying to reach people, in sort of an autistic/only child on a remote island born to two professors/Asperger's kind of way.

I have heard many people with a chip on their shoulder claim that other people work this way, but how would they know ?

I don't believe people can read minds. I don't even believe they can accomplish the more mundane task of fairly assessing people with different values and backgrounds than themselves, for that matter, with rare exceptions. If you don't share a person's values and background, any assumptions about their motives are suspect.

Milk said:
The thing is I am not even saying Jaco in general did this. I mean, I don't enjoy him, but I feel if he did we wouldn't even be talking about him.
Click to expand...

I totally agree. Everything I've heard by him, and in nearly every case by any other American fusion player of the 70s or 80s was intended to sound "nice" and "cool" in the context of what we would now call smooth jazz sheen with some advanced bebop harmony and plenty of latin jazz influenced syncopation. It was clearly meant to be diverting and enjoyable.

I remember a time when I thought it was. To me it sounds like the radio circa 1978. There are no recordings in that style that strike me as being incompatible with a hawaiian shirt and a drink with an umbrella in it. The adults I knew that liked it at the time were not musicians or huge music fans; they were ex hippie baby boomers transitioning into salesmen or stockbrokers, always male, who drove BMWs and had apartments with white carpet and glass coffee tables, and this music was another lifestyle accessory. They were also Steely Dan fans, 100% of the time. Usually Michael Franks as well.

You don't hear really thorny dissonance or nasty distortion in any of it as a rule. That would have been counterproductive to the goal of making the listener seem sophisticated and hip, but not so hip that women would run away or so that people wouldn't want to buy stuff from them.

Some earlier fusion, and some acts that were between fusion and prog, free jazz, or avant garde could get really thorny and dark at times. I still like some of that stuff. There's a big difference between, say, the first couple of Tony Williams Lifetime albums, and "Gentle Thoughts".
 
#317
PahaPeikko said:
I'm sorry Ron. I didn't know that you had such a close relationship with Jaco. And what comes to my opinions be aware that I'm much lesser musician and especially theorist than you.

Music is such an abstract artform, deviations of air preassure which then are processed in the brains, better or worse, but no absolute truth can be found.

I've got here some you tube links to present what I'm after with this swing thing.

Here Paul Jackson plays funk jazz.

Click to expand...


No offense taken. BTW I'm Roy not Ron.:)
As far as swing I love what you posted. Got a chance to work a concert with Miroslav when he was playing with Larry Coryell and Alphonse Mouzon in 1977 and hang with him a bit at The North Sea Jazz Festival in 1989. He's a great player.
B B King what can you say? He's like Ray Charles if you don't think that swings you have to get your pulse checked!
Ditto with Paul Jackson and The Headhunters especially with Mike Clark on drums. Two of the baddest dudes ever!
When I think Swing it's really hard to not think of fine double bassists like Ray Brown, Oscar Pettiford, Jimmy Blanton, Ron Carter and Paul Chambers first. Swing was pioneered by those guys, although a lot of Electric Bass guys can do this. I hope I'm one of them or at least it's my goal.
 
#318

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