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Jaco clip causing some controversy
- Thread starter PahaPeikko
- Start date
Roy Vogt
Supporting Member
- Sep 20, 2000
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- Endorsing Artist: Kiesel Basses, Ampeg Amplification, Hotone Ampero II effects
Agreed.
Those two spots he points to (2:07 and 2:37) are nothing more than well-placed chords, not sins against music. Maybe a little aggressive, but not over-the-top for a trio.
I think that whole performance is brilliant, a shining moment for Jaco and any bassist. I own this show on CD, it's pretty amazing if you're into Joni/Jaco et.al.
Agree; but I also think part of it is that to me most recordings fail to capture the magic that happens with a J into the 360. And, if a player has never experienced it, they simply would not understand. That sound has plenty of lows in it that don't usually translate to the recordings at the time.
I know you didn't ask me, but I would say, "Yes." And you can see it in this thread.
Most of the criticisms are fair, simply saying things to the effect of, "I appreciate his ability and the groundwork he laid for others to build upon; he's just not my favorite." Fair enough.
But some of the others have gone out of their way to ridicule him, or to diminish what his accomplishments have meant. And those are the criticisms with which I take issue.
That's ok, there have been threads in the past on Jaco where people would get down on him for his choice of pants. Trust me, if somebody is basing their coolness on somebody else's coolness, they themselves are not cool.
This is a great example of confirmation bias at work.
Clearly the guy looms large in your world (and that's fine, I have musicians like that in my world too). But everything you are saying about the world outside the bass community is wrong. Those beliefs are only sustainable within the bubble of being a certain type of bass player (and likely of a certain age), and/or through through online forums like this and 70s/80s fusion fandom.
Civilians who know who the guy is are very much the exception, not the rule. I seldom ever heard him on the radio and I don't think I've ever heard anyone cover one of his tunes, even years ago closer to his heyday when I liked some fusion and was looking out for it.
None of his compositions became hits in the real world sense (as opposed to in a relative sense "for fusion/contemporary jazz" or "for a bass player"). He never had any of his tunes released as a single. And while that may seem like a high bar for a jazz/fusion player, this was a time where there were still crossover hits by Chuck Mangione, Grover Washington Jr., and George Benson, and Zawinul's "Birdland" (which Jaco of course played on). Contemporaries of his like Hubert Laws, Earl Klugh, Jean-Luc Ponty, and Bob James probably all sold a lot more records than Jaco and remain much more well known to the public.
If you ask random middle aged strangers to hum a tune either by Chuck Mangione or Jaco Pastorius, you're going to be hearing a lot of "Feels So Good" and "Give It All You Got". Ask that of younger folks and you'll be getting a lot of blank stares.
Nor have any of his tunes become jazz standards (although to be fair he was at the tail end of the period when that was still really even possible). There just are no objective facts to support the notion of Jaco as a great or widely influential composer.
The only times his name has come up in conversations that I've been a part of in the last 10 years has been when I was talking to other bass players. Les Claypool and Flea each come up about 100x as often, in my experience, including many times from non musicians or musicians other than bassists. (I'm not a fan of them either, they're just examples.)
Roy Vogt
Supporting Member
- Sep 20, 2000
- 4,433
- 537
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Kiesel Basses, Ampeg Amplification, Hotone Ampero II effects
I guess if we're going by commercial success as to the relative relevance of music I was right when I said people should take the Justin Bieber gig on another thread.
As far as the Talkbass community it's an open forum. All you have to have is Internet access and an opinion. Heck, you may not even own a bass or play a note! No one can check.
Yes I am a huge fan and his playing changed my life. I am also a hired gun and I look to an awful lot of bassists for inspiration and ideas because it's what I do for a living.
I knew who James Jamerson was before Standing in the Shadows of Motown was released in the late 80s but he didn't loom as large in my world. Jaco ' s been gone since 1987 and so a whole generation or two only knows about him through forums like this.
Truth be told if you're going by recognition of the non - bassists as to relevance the most relevant players would likely be Sir Paul McCartney and Gene Simmons. While I have no quarrel with the former, the latter gives me pause.
I guess if we're going by commercial success as to the relative relevance of music I was right when I said people should take the Justin Bieber gig on another thread.
I'm not saying that - Tampabass argued that Jaco has a high profile and regard outside of the bass community as a reason for how he should be regarded by bass players, and I'm arguing that he does not in fact have that kind of profile.
If you don't think that's a particularly important metric, I pretty much agree with you. But then there goes that rationale for the supposed ubiquity or inevitibility or universal respect of Jaco as an influence.
He stated "outside the talkbass or bass community" you expanded that to include "random middle aged strangers" you may have a future in politics.
You don't think random middle aged strangers are outside the talkbass or bass community ?
I was being generous - at least if they are middle aged (and not bass players), they have a chance of having heard of him.
Strange, a lot of my friends who aren't bassists know who Jaco is.
This 'universal respect' defies rationale. At least when we try to limit that rationale in an ethnocentric manner.
This 'universal respect' defies rationale. At least when we try to limit that rationale in an ethnocentric manner.
There is a larger community of bassist beyond talkbass, there is a larger community of musicians who study and perform this style of music (I think this is where he was going). There is an even a larger community of musicians. If you follow these circles outward you can come to include the deaf in the "larger community".
You chose to step out to the circle that would obviously not recognize Jaco and then used that as your arguement to why he is not recognized outside the bass community.
I understand that, but that kind of nuance was not present in what Tampabass said. He pretty much said Jaco is big outside of the bass community, and my counter argument is about that. I took his words at face value; you're reading conditions into it that are not implicit and complaining that I didn't do the same.
If he wishes to narrow the scope of what he is saying is Jaco's profile, fine, but that also means he is proportionally reducing the effectiveness of his argument.
I don't really see how that argument even holds up as you describe, unless you narrow it down specifically to fans of 70s/80s fusion or of bass playing.
I'm not into the self appointed moderator mode of reply, but by the same token, if you aren't interested in 'controversy' as stated in the thread title, maybe you should move along ?
The only issue here is the mix -- Jaco is way too loud. Fix that and this track sounds brilliant!
^ nah, makes it easier to transcribe those lines. You have to admire his creativity when playing a walking bass line. He LOVES the tri-tone and that #9 chord...damn.
