Jaco on Donna Lee. Is it improvised or not?

[RedLeg]

Do you think Jaco relied on the Omni book?

relied? I would have to say yes, but loosely. probably used it like how a person writing a speech uses note cards.

 

[RedLeg]

Here's a version featuring DB and guitar:

you see kiddies, jaco was good, but that guy was great!

 

[Roy Vogt]

relied? I would have to say yes, but loosely. probably used it like how a person writing a speech uses note cards.

Probably not, since the first Omnibook in treble clef (for Eb sax, btw) was published in 1979 and Donna Lee was recorded in 1975.
Jaco's solo is totally his own if you compare it to Bird's solo.
According to his interview in 1976 in Downbeat, he learned the head to "Donna Lee" by ear off of a Jazz at the Philharmonic Record his Dad Jack had given him.
Rich Matteson gave us all a mimeograph of the head to Donna Lee in the first Improvisation Class at NTSU in 1974. He said that that was the level of dexterity needed for any instrument to play BeBop and Jazz.

 

[Snarf]

...

 

[RedLeg]

Probably not, since the first Omnibook in treble clef (for Eb sax, btw) was published in 1979 and Donna Lee was recorded in 1975.
Jaco's solo is totally his own if you compare it to Bird's solo.
According to his interview in 1976 in Downbeat, he learned the head to "Donna Lee" by ear off of a Jazz at the Philharmonic Record his Dad Jack had given him.
Rich Matteson gave us all a mimeograph of the head to Donna Lee in the first Improvisation Class at NTSU in 1974. He said that that was the level of dexterity needed for any instrument to play BeBop and Jazz.

cool man. never knew when it was published. if he transcribed by ear, it makes sense why some licks were similar. guess he transcribed the whole thing by ear and "borrowed" some things. pretty cool nonetheless.

there is a guy on Amazon.com saying it came out in 76 though.

 

[Wilbyman]

no again.
here is jaco improvising on a jazz standard.



i almost positive you are mistaken about what was said in that interview. if its the one im thinking about what marcus said is that we was disappioned to find out that the havona solo was spliced together from 2 or 3 passes. so it wasnt 100% live and spontaneous, but each pass was improvised and the highlights of each pass were used to construct the final take.

Ah man. Kinda sad.

 

[Roy Vogt]

Whit is the man.

But the fact is, to my ears, Jaco was a wanting player live, but nailed it in the studio. That says to me "written out, rehearsed, perfected." .

Go to www.jazzfusion.tv and you can find some great live bootlegs of Jaco, Pat Metheny and Bob Moses at Ryles and other clubs in Boston prior to the recording of Bright Size Life. It's probably the best record of any of Jaco's improvising when he was on his game. It's definitely an eye-opener.
BTW, on a personal note, I enjoyed your Audition CD. Good Job!

 

[Stick_Player]

I vote that it was a "composed" solo.

So what?

The two options are:

1) Spend the time getting it right (I understood Jaco spent 7-9 years working this out), and then go into the studio to record.

2) Endlessly record and pick the best take (or composite of several takes).

In the medium of recording, both are valid.

 

[Winterpegbass]

For all of the "doubting thomases" (Shwashwa, Odin), here is the link to the Marcus Miller observations on Jaco:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

And I'll paste it here:


I met him in 1979-80 and hung out with him off and on until he passed away. He would come sit in with me on my gigs in New York (he'd turn the amp all the way up and play "Purple Haze" by Jimi Hendrix!!) Once we played his composition "Continuum" as a duet.
Jaco and I didn't go over a lot of stuff. He showed me a diminished pattern that he was working on. He asked me if I knew about "cutting" the notes once. At the time I didn't know what he was talking about, but now I know he was telling me I should articulate each note harder when playing with my fingers - hard enough so that each note popped a little. Not pop like when you're thumbing but pop like Rocco's notes used to pop. I remember evaluating myself once and not liking the weak articulation and then realizing that that was what crazy Jaco was talking about (at the time he was pretty out there!)
Once he said, "You think you're bad 'cause you can improvise!!" I came to find out that a lot of his stuff wasn't improvised. When I was a kid I thought it was and was banging my brains (and my fingers) trying to figure how to improvise such perfectly constructed and flawlessly executed solos.
It turns out that even Jaco couldn't improvise those perfect solos - he used to compose the solos then perform them. I was dissapointed in him for a while. Then, when I began to look at him as a composer, I was floored all over again - because as compositions, his solos are still breathtaking (not to mention difficult to perform).
I think Jaco definitely influenced contemporary jazz bass. These days you can hear so many bassists who play with that singing fretless bass tone that Jaco popularized.
He also, along with Stanley Clarke, challenged bass players to examine the extreme possibilities of the bass guitar. I think the expectations for a contemporary jazz bass guitarist are high primarily because of the standards that Jaco and Stanley set.
Listening to Jaco as a youngster, I was encouraged to approach the fretless bass from a vocal perspective. I read that he tried to emulate Frank Sinatra, his favorite singer, with his bass. My favorite singer was Stevie Wonder, so I began to try to emulate him with my fretless. Developing a vocal approach to melodies Iike this is really important for instruments that don't rely on the breath. You hear so many bassists and guitarists playing "run on sentences" because they never have to stop for air. Playing from a more vocal perspective forces you to leave space and gives your playing more structure. Listening to Jaco encouraged me to be expressive on the bass guitar.
In learning Jaco's solos, I was also forced to learn the harmonies that supported his solos (since the harmonies were the foundation for his melodies). The same with Stanley Clarke, Paul Chambers, and John Coltrane. When I learned their solos, I had to learn the supporting harmonies. Eventually, I found myself with a strong harmonic vocabulary - a nice palette to write music from.
And finally, because Jaco's sound was so distinctive, I was forced to abandon his style because I realized there was only so far I could progress sounding like someone else. So I concentrated on developing my own sound from the age of 19 on.
I think I succeeded in finding my own sound, but I think it's obvious that Jaco is a big influence when you hear me play (at least sometimes).

 

[Snarf]

Go to www.jazzfusion.tv and you can find some great live bootlegs of Jaco, Pat Metheny and Bob Moses at Ryles and other clubs in Boston prior to the recording of Bright Size Life. It's probably the best record of any of Jaco's improvising when he was on his game. It's definitely an eye-opener.
BTW, on a personal note, I enjoyed your Audition CD. Good Job!

Oh nice, I'll have to check that out.

And thanks about the CD! I actually just called the office to see if I should book a flight for the March 18th audition day. Thank god I did, because I was all ready to click "confirm" and then Brian (or Ben? I couldn't quite catch it) tells me the auditions for my major were invite only and dates were flexible!

 

[Altitude]

Winterpeg just posted Marcus' comments that seem to be the source of most of the discussion and controversy around this topic. I forget the extent to which the Milkowski book addresses it. In any case, there are reliable sources that suggest that Jaco did not totally improvise those famous solos.

I've posted in a few of these threads, and since I did it the last time I listened to the Jaco/Bireli Lagrene "Live In Italy" recordings. They are very good and contain bass solos that are clearly identifiable as improvised to an informed ear. The guy could do it - at least by a certain point in his career.

It's not a binary thing, either. A solo can be not entirely improvised and also not be planned note-for-note like a 1980s Def Leppard guitar solo. A lot of players carry around a library of licks in their minds, and when they get a chance to solo, what they play is some combination of licks they know and transitions and passages they may never have played until that precise moment.

Some guys tend to begin with a planned theme, go crazy in the middle, and then exit again on a somewhat planned theme. This is sort of my MO.

I get the feeling that Jaco may really have been a soloist who could improvise, more or less, but who may have been more dependent on his lick library than one might expect. It's all good - even if composed partially or completely, those are some sick solos.

 

[odin70]

cool man. never knew when it was published. if he transcribed by ear, it makes sense why some licks were similar. guess he transcribed the whole thing by ear and "borrowed" some things. pretty cool nonetheless.

there is a guy on Amazon.com saying it came out in 76 though.

I think Bill M. wrote that Jaco first got the Parker book while he was at Bellevue.
Which licks are similar? The pickup notes before the solo starts is definitely Parker but i cant say i have found more similarities.

 

[odin70]

For all of the "doubting thomases" (Shwashwa, Odin), here is the link to the Marcus Miller observations on Jaco:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

And I'll paste it here:


I met him in 1979-80 and hung out with him off and on until he passed away. He would come sit in with me on my gigs in New York (he'd turn the amp all the way up and play "Purple Haze" by Jimi Hendrix!!) Once we played his composition "Continuum" as a duet.
Jaco and I didn't go over a lot of stuff. He showed me a diminished pattern that he was working on. He asked me if I knew about "cutting" the notes once. At the time I didn't know what he was talking about, but now I know he was telling me I should articulate each note harder when playing with my fingers - hard enough so that each note popped a little. Not pop like when you're thumbing but pop like Rocco's notes used to pop. I remember evaluating myself once and not liking the weak articulation and then realizing that that was what crazy Jaco was talking about (at the time he was pretty out there!)
Once he said, "You think you're bad 'cause you can improvise!!" I came to find out that a lot of his stuff wasn't improvised. When I was a kid I thought it was and was banging my brains (and my fingers) trying to figure how to improvise such perfectly constructed and flawlessly executed solos.
It turns out that even Jaco couldn't improvise those perfect solos - he used to compose the solos then perform them. I was dissapointed in him for a while. Then, when I began to look at him as a composer, I was floored all over again - because as compositions, his solos are still breathtaking (not to mention difficult to perform).
I think Jaco definitely influenced contemporary jazz bass. These days you can hear so many bassists who play with that singing fretless bass tone that Jaco popularized.
He also, along with Stanley Clarke, challenged bass players to examine the extreme possibilities of the bass guitar. I think the expectations for a contemporary jazz bass guitarist are high primarily because of the standards that Jaco and Stanley set.
Listening to Jaco as a youngster, I was encouraged to approach the fretless bass from a vocal perspective. I read that he tried to emulate Frank Sinatra, his favorite singer, with his bass. My favorite singer was Stevie Wonder, so I began to try to emulate him with my fretless. Developing a vocal approach to melodies Iike this is really important for instruments that don't rely on the breath. You hear so many bassists and guitarists playing "run on sentences" because they never have to stop for air. Playing from a more vocal perspective forces you to leave space and gives your playing more structure. Listening to Jaco encouraged me to be expressive on the bass guitar.
In learning Jaco's solos, I was also forced to learn the harmonies that supported his solos (since the harmonies were the foundation for his melodies). The same with Stanley Clarke, Paul Chambers, and John Coltrane. When I learned their solos, I had to learn the supporting harmonies. Eventually, I found myself with a strong harmonic vocabulary - a nice palette to write music from.
And finally, because Jaco's sound was so distinctive, I was forced to abandon his style because I realized there was only so far I could progress sounding like someone else. So I concentrated on developing my own sound from the age of 19 on.
I think I succeeded in finding my own sound, but I think it's obvious that Jaco is a big influence when you hear me play (at least sometimes).

Very interesting!

 

[odin70]

I get the feeling that Jaco may really have been a soloist who could improvise, more or less, but who may have been more dependent on his lick library than one might expect. It's all good - even if composed partially or completely, those are some sick solos.

I agree. But imo if you record something like Donna Lee there is a certain expectation that you also are able to do it live (just as good) You just cant play that same composed solo night after night. If you cant improvise (with or without all the licks in the world)..you just cant live up to yourself. It would not surprise me if that must have been pretty hard for someone like Jaco. Often his Donna Lee solos live where just a couple of licks, bam boom bam, some harmonics, feedback.. and the air is pretty much out of the balloon.

 

[cnltb]

A famous bassist that should not be mentioned here on TB claimed once that Donna Lee was written out. Does anyone have info on this?
PS! Please no "how dare you" comments

I think(I do not know) it was written out given that it is Jaco Pastorius this is about.
I don't have him down as an improvisor.
Nothing wrong with that either .
Makes perfect sense as well, to pre organize a solo if it is for a CD.
he wouldn't be the only one to do that either I think.

 

[Altitude]

You just cant play that same composed solo night after night. If you cant improvise (with or without all the licks in the world)..you just cant live up to yourself. It would not surprise me if that must have been pretty hard for someone like Jaco. Often his Donna Lee solos live where just a couple of licks, bam boom bam, some harmonics, feedback.. and the air is pretty much out of the balloon.

His live solos were kind of lick-driven, I agree. His thing was more about choosing provocative notes (why he got so much mileage out of harmonics) and driving the bass to an unexpected place in the musical conversation. Whether or not he could improvise, a lot of guys could do it better, no doubt.

 

[dpbass66]

I dont think that a guy with the pure innate musical prowess, evidenced in his playing and composing, like Jaco, lacks the capacity to improvise. That being said I suppose it is possible that he hadnt refined those skills, and thus has the capacity but not the ability. I am not convinced of this. Everyone who studies improvisation knows that ultimately you amass a catalog of licks/ideas which you employ in creating a solo. Your solos are then some collaged combination/iteration of these ideas, plus anything completely original that you create (ie a melodic idea, theme or motif). I cant think of ANY great improvisor that does not do this.

FYI, interesting observation, I havent seen anyone bring this up, but the opening line in Jaco's famous Donna Lee solo is the first phrase of the melody/solo from Parker's tune Kim 2, as transcribed in the Omnibook.

I would say that Jaco was definitely not a complex improvisor in the modern sense. Many guys eclipse him in terms of sophistication...Patitucci for example, who, BTW, from a pure "creating lines" perspective just continually astounds me. An older guy who was around WITH Jaco, Eddie Gomez, IMO was a much deeper, more profound improvisor than Jaco. Other examples abound.

I have read and heard that the Havona solo was more of an composed solo. If you listen to it, this comes as no surprise. It just bears the stamp of something pre-conceived. Nevertheless, what a gorgeous solo!! I dont know about you all, but every time I hear it I want to go back and re-learn it. Given the end result, I give him a pass on that one. It has so much integrity compositionally speaking, it is more or less "part" of the song.

We all know that Jaco brought other things to the table including sound, feel/groove, timing, support playing, fretless bass, harmonics, and attitude that, somehow, despite his detractors, leaves him the subject of Talkbass threads some 25 years post-mortem and some 35 years after he recorded Donna Lee (timeframes are estimates....sorry if I am a bit off).

 

[Roy Vogt]

cool man. never knew when it was published. if he transcribed by ear, it makes sense why some licks were similar. guess he transcribed the whole thing by ear and "borrowed" some things. pretty cool nonetheless.

there is a guy on Amazon.com saying it came out in 76 though.

I was in Graduate School at the University of Miami when The Omnibook came out in 1979. It was a very big deal for the sax players. I can remember Ed Calle in particular locking himself in the practice room and playing through every Parker solo.
In that same Downbeat interview from 1976, Jaco said, "I only learned the heads to the tunes. I didn't mess with the solos, though. I figured that was personal."
If you A/B Bird's solo and Jaco's solo you will see they are in no way similar. I teach both of them all the time so I'm constantly reminded of this fact.
Interestingly enough, this was Mingus' take on the state of the Electric Bass in 1976 from the same issue:
"Jimmy Blanton was doing everything they are doing on the Electric Bass now in 1939. You can find the recordings and hear it."

 

[Marty Forrer]

Probably not, since the first Omnibook in treble clef (for Eb sax, btw) was published in 1979 and Donna Lee was recorded in 1975.
Jaco's solo is totally his own if you compare it to Bird's solo.
According to his interview in 1976 in Downbeat, he learned the head to "Donna Lee" by ear off of a Jazz at the Philharmonic Record his Dad Jack had given him.
Rich Matteson gave us all a mimeograph of the head to Donna Lee in the first Improvisation Class at NTSU in 1974. He said that that was the level of dexterity needed for any instrument to play BeBop and Jazz.

Now I'm in trouble. I've been playing, or attempting to play, jazz for twenty years, and I aint got anywhere near the dexterity to play Donna Lee. Mind you, in all that time no-one has actually ever called that tune.

 

[Altitude]

I would say that Jaco was definitely not a complex improvisor in the modern sense. Many guys eclipse him in terms of sophistication...Patitucci for example, who, BTW, from a pure "creating lines" perspective just continually astounds me. An older guy who was around WITH Jaco, Eddie Gomez, IMO was a much deeper, more profound improvisor than Jaco. Other examples abound.

You and I are in complete sync on this topic. Even as relates to Patitucci. I often have conflicting feelings about him. On the one hand, I have gained so much joy and inspiration from his playing in the last 20 years. On the other hand, and as you suggest, listening to his astounding improvisational skill can be a little discouraging.