Jaco

[oldfclefer]

IMO
Jaco is all about sounds. He's the Hendrix of bass. Not the fastest, not the most precise, but the best sounding bassist ever.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I usually limit my participation in Jaco threads, just because they seem to have an odd propensity to go south in a hurry, but I find there are a couple of things I'd like to say on this one.

With no disrespect meant toward differing opinions, I have to say that *IMHO* those of you who suggest that Jaco's greater impact was as a composer are completely off base. For example, mike flynn mentioned the phrase, his pen was mightier than his bass. I think that if you actually look at the history, this is clearly wrong. (I'm not picking on you, mike, just using you as an example that comes to mind! Peace.)

First, and I know this may be heretical to some, Jaco IMHO can't really be classified as a "great" jazz composer. Yes, he wrote some fine tunes; I personally would be happy if I wrote one thing as good as "Three Views" in my life. But he was not in Shorter's league as a composer, or Zawinul's. The number of *really good* Jaco tunes is not large IMO, and because of his tragically shortened life, we never got to see what else he might have gotten to. To be a great composer, I think, you not only have to be really good, you also have to keep being really good for a while. Jaco didn't really get the chance to do that.

Now, I know somebody is gonna take this as a slam on Jaco. It isn't. I am and have always been a big fan. But that doesn't mean I have to think everything he did was the ultimate.

Second, any bassist who was around when Jaco came up can tell you that the first thing that hit them was not his composing but his playing. I think some of you who weren't old enough to see that just don't quite know how it was. I'll take mike as an example again (sorry mike! no harm meant). mike was born in 1972. That means he was, what, 4 when Jaco's solo album came out and 5 when Heavy Weather came out. Thus, unless he was unbelievably precocious, he wasn't playing bass at the time. Well, I was, and so were a number of people I know. I can tell you that just about no one was saying, check out this guy that wrote "Continuum." They were saying, check out this guy who plays bass guitar, and fretless at that, in a way you won't believe. It was about the *playing*. I saw not only young players but established pros with their jaws hanging down, not only because they couldn't believe what they were seeing but because they couldn't understand how someone could have thought of playing bass with that approach.

I think those of you who are younger don't always realize the extent to which you live a post-Jaco bass playing world. Even those of you who don't play like Jaco or aren't consciously influenced by him or don't even like him are living in a world where the concept of playing bass guitar was irreversibly changed and broadened by what Jaco did.

I don't mean he was the best bassist of all time, or the most influential, or whatever. I mean that in the relatively short history of our instrument, he's one of a very small handful of seminal figures. Ironically, because of the very power of what he did, some of what he accomplished has become invisible, because it's become part of the air we breathe as bass players. You take singing solo fretless for granted, for exanple, but no one was really doing that before Jaco.

Think about it: what do you think of when you think of fretless? For many, "mwah" comes to mind first. Well, basically, Jaco *invented* that on the bass guitar. Nobody of which I'm aware played fretless with anything like his sound. Yes, I know there were previous fretless bassists--I even played a little fretless myself before Jaco hit--but no one was getting a tone like that. For instance, check out Alphonso Johnson playing fretless on five cuts on Weather Report's "Black Market." It's fine playing, but tonally it's nothing like the sound Jaco got on the other two tracks. Jaco invented a sound that has become such a part of what we think about as fretless tone that many of us probably don't even think about, or know, where it came from.

Also, nobody to my knowledge was using electric bass as a *featured* (not just occasionally permitted) melody and solo instrument, and nobody of whom I'm aware had ever played bass guitar melodies with that level of expressiveness in the phrasing. Yes, there had obviously been bass guitar solos before, but never with the "up-frontness" that Jaco demanded and provided. Every time you hear or play a fretless melody bit, you owe something to Jaco.

The fact that Jaco was a good composer was a bonus, not the greater part of the enchilada. His impact was in how he played. The fact that there may be bassists now who play more or faster, or who have fully digested and perhaps gone beyond his technical achievements, is irrelevant. Again, they're all living in a bass playing world that's in a sense bigger because of what Jaco did.

I'm NOT saying, oh, Jaco was the best ever, he did everything first, nobody could ever be better, or any crap like that. Honestly, he's not even my favorite electric bassist. All I'm really saying is that IMO we owe it to those who came before to give full respect to their achievements, and in particular that we do this best by *understanding those achievements accurately*. To me, giving short shrift to Jaco's playing in favor of his composing distorts his achievement. That's all.

End of rant.

 

[Phil Smith]

Richard Linsey,

Stanley Clarke in my opinion is the bassist that brought the bass out front. I think it all comes down to what type of playing resonates with you. I was never really into Weather Report, though I did like "Mysterious Traveler", the stuff from Return To Forever to me just had more impact because of all the players involved which includes their playing ability and level of composition. Most people don't even realize that a lot of stuff that Stanley was playing was on double bass and not bass guitar. The "mwah" sound, I'll concede that to Jaco with respect to bringing it to prominence.

 

[bassjus]

I usually limit my participation in Jaco threads, just because they seem to have an odd propensity to go south in a hurry, but I find there are a couple of things I'd like to say on this one.

With no disrespect meant toward differing opinions, I have to say that *IMHO* those of you who suggest that Jaco's greater impact was as a composer are completely off base. For example, mike flynn mentioned the phrase, his pen was mightier than his bass. I think that if you actually look at the history, this is clearly wrong. (I'm not picking on you, mike, just using you as an example that comes to mind! Peace.)

First, and I know this may be heretical to some, Jaco IMHO can't really be classified as a "great" jazz composer. Yes, he wrote some fine tunes; I personally would be happy if I wrote one thing as good as "Three Views" in my life. But he was not in Shorter's league as a composer, or Zawinul's. The number of *really good* Jaco tunes is not large IMO, and because of his tragically shortened life, we never got to see what else he might have gotten to. To be a great composer, I think, you not only have to be really good, you also have to keep being really good for a while. Jaco didn't really get the chance to do that.

Now, I know somebody is gonna take this as a slam on Jaco. It isn't. I am and have always been a big fan. But that doesn't mean I have to think everything he did was the ultimate.

Second, any bassist who was around when Jaco came up can tell you that the first thing that hit them was not his composing but his playing. I think some of you who weren't old enough to see that just don't quite know how it was. I'll take mike as an example again (sorry mike! no harm meant). mike was born in 1972. That means he was, what, 4 when Jaco's solo album came out and 5 when Heavy Weather came out. Thus, unless he was unbelievably precocious, he wasn't playing bass at the time. Well, I was, and so were a number of people I know. I can tell you that just about no one was saying, check out this guy that wrote "Continuum." They were saying, check out this guy who plays bass guitar, and fretless at that, in a way you won't believe. It was about the *playing*. I saw not only young players but established pros with their jaws hanging down, not only because they couldn't believe what they were seeing but because they couldn't understand how someone could have thought of playing bass with that approach.

I think those of you who are younger don't always realize the extent to which you live a post-Jaco bass playing world. Even those of you who don't play like Jaco or aren't consciously influenced by him or don't even like him are living in a world where the concept of playing bass guitar was irreversibly changed and broadened by what Jaco did.

I don't mean he was the best bassist of all time, or the most influential, or whatever. I mean that in the relatively short history of our instrument, he's one of a very small handful of seminal figures. Ironically, because of the very power of what he did, some of what he accomplished has become invisible, because it's become part of the air we breathe as bass players. You take singing solo fretless for granted, for exanple, but no one was really doing that before Jaco.

Think about it: what do you think of when you think of fretless? For many, "mwah" comes to mind first. Well, basically, Jaco *invented* that on the bass guitar. Nobody of which I'm aware played fretless with anything like his sound. Yes, I know there were previous fretless bassists--I even played a little fretless myself before Jaco hit--but no one was getting a tone like that. For instance, check out Alphonso Johnson playing fretless on five cuts on Weather Report's "Black Market." It's fine playing, but tonally it's nothing like the sound Jaco got on the other two tracks. Jaco invented a sound that has become such a part of what we think about as fretless tone that many of us probably don't even think about, or know, where it came from.

Also, nobody to my knowledge was using electric bass as a *featured* (not just occasionally permitted) melody and solo instrument, and nobody of whom I'm aware had ever played bass guitar melodies with that level of expressiveness in the phrasing. Yes, there had obviously been bass guitar solos before, but never with the "up-frontness" that Jaco demanded and provided. Every time you hear or play a fretless melody bit, you owe something to Jaco.

The fact that Jaco was a good composer was a bonus, not the greater part of the enchilada. His impact was in how he played. The fact that there may be bassists now who play more or faster, or who have fully digested and perhaps gone beyond his technical achievements, is irrelevant. Again, they're all living in a bass playing world that's in a sense bigger because of what Jaco did.

I'm NOT saying, oh, Jaco was the best ever, he did everything first, nobody could ever be better, or any crap like that. Honestly, he's not even my favorite electric bassist. All I'm really saying is that IMO we owe it to those who came before to give full respect to their achievements, and in particular that we do this best by *understanding those achievements accurately*. To me, giving short shrift to Jaco's playing in favor of his composing distorts his achievement. That's all.

End of rant.

We can close this thread, because you hit the nail on the head.

great post.

and I didn't mean for that to rhyme.

 

[j-raj]

very good post, Richard.

Being from the 'post-era beginners', it is great to receve input from those of us TB'ers that were around while he was alive and actively gigging.

Many of the personal and anecdotal stories that I hear these days are not of his music and his playing... But of the other elements of his life. So having that, the legacy that he left in his recordings and piecing together from the cats that were on the scene playing while he was... is all alot of us have to go with.

I absolutely agree with you that his composing skills were good and many of us would like to even create one tune like his tunes in our lifetime... but there composers out there like Stravinsky, Mingus, Shorter, Zorn, Quincy, Prince.... Stevie, that I would personally hold in a higher regard when it comes to composing ability.

As a player, he did stuff that very few were doing at his time, he got a great amount of exposure to the world for many to associate him with quite a few "first's". Plus, He really brought the bass to the front of some stages where it wasn't in the front of at that time, which is a great door that he opened for many present and future bassists to explore.

That said, there are many other fantastic cats alive today, that I actively associate with quite a few "first's"....

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Richard Linsey,

Stanley Clarke in my opinion is the bassist that brought the bass out front. I think it all comes down to what type of playing resonates with you. I was never really into Weather Report, though I did like "Mysterious Traveler", the stuff from Return To Forever to me just had more impact because of all the players involved which includes their playing ability and level of composition. Most people don't even realize that a lot of stuff that Stanley was playing was on double bass and not bass guitar. The "mwah" sound, I'll concede that to Jaco with respect to bringing it to prominence.

Yeah, I was hip to Stanley at the time too. Somewhere I've still got what must have been one of his first record dates, "Children of Forever." This was before Return to Forever. Stanley was probably all of 18 at the time. And you're right, he was known as a hot, up-front bassist a couple of years before Jaco was. Still, IMHO he was not *quite* the technical innovator on electric bass that Jaco was, and he was never as good a melodist on BG. To me, he didn't change the very concept of what a bass guitar could do quite the way Jaco did.

But I agree, a lot will depend on whose music resonated with you more. I was the opposite of you in that regard--always much more a WR guy than an RTF guy.

 

[JimK]

I still have Children Of Forever on LP; my Jazz drummin'/Latin percussion playin' uncle gave it to me when I first starting buying Jazz records. IIRC, I already had Stanley Clarke...So, COF was a let down.

A lotta younger players probably give Wooten credit for the Open-Hammer-Pluck thing...Stanley had that goin' on back in '74-'75 or so
(e.g. "Lopsy Lu").

FWIW, I was more a WR guy vs. RTF...for some reason, Al Dimeola did not float my boat at all.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I still have Children Of Forever on LP; my Jazz drummin'/Latin percussion playin' uncle gave it to me when I first starting buying Jazz records. IIRC, I already had Stanley Clarke...So, COF was a let down.

A lotta younger players probably give Wooten credit for the Open-Hammer-Pluck thing...Stanley had that goin' on back in '74-'75 or so
(e.g. "Lopsy Lu").

FWIW, I was more a WR guy vs. RTF...for some reason, Al Dimeola did not float my boat at all.

Shoulda known *you'd* have that one, Jim!

I guess my thing is, I really believe in giving credit where credit is due and understanding where things come from and how much we owe to those who went before. I have absolutely no problem with someone who, say, likes Alain Caron better than Jaco or Wooten better than Stanley. De gustibus non est disputandum, and all that. But I gotta admit, it grinds my gears a little when folks don't understand that people like Caron come, in part, out of people like Jaco, or when they give Wooten credit for inventing something Stanley did first. (This hardly ever comes from the players in question themselves IME; more from the fans.)

To toss in a totally gratuitous sports comparison, I like what Shaq said to George Mikan: "Without you, there would be no me." There are a lot of bassists who could say something like that to Jaco. Sure, it's a simplification, but occasionally simplifications have their uses to highlight a point....

 

[Phil Smith]

Still, IMHO he was not *quite* the technical innovator on electric bass that Jaco was, and he was never as good a melodist on BG. To me, he didn't change the very concept of what a bass guitar could do quite the way Jaco did.

You're either a melodist are you aren't, doesn't matter if that instrument is a double bass, bass guitar or an oboe.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

You're either a melodist are you aren't, doesn't matter if that instrument is a double bass, bass guitar or an oboe.

Yeah, I know. I only made that qualification because (1) we were talking about BG and (2) I like Stanley's playing more on URB than on BG.

 

[Slurm]

Great post again. thanks very much for that.

ps what does IMO and IMHO mean?

 

[burk48237]

Richard Lindsey, I was going to quote you but in order to keep my post under thirty pages I decided to just say YOU NAILED IT. I graduated High School in 76 and I heard Stanley before I heard Jaco, and Stanley certainly was a HUGE contributor to the evolution of the Electric Bass as a Solo instrument. But when Jaco's solo album came out, our (bass players) JAWS DROPPED, No one was "approaching the electric bass like that". He literally created a new way to "think". As far as his solos, I think many of the new "chops" players can't hold a candle to his phrasing in things like "Havana, Continuum, and Bright Size Life".

But the piece that really put it over the top for me was "Dry Cleaner from Des Moines" on "Shadows and Light" (Joni Mitchell). He didn't play the bass on that tune he "Attacked" the bass, what we got wasn't a bass line but a Bass Explosion that literally was "the tune". I think the "Hendrix" analogy is very correct because on that tune he was playing "Rhythm and lead" at the same time. and he was the rhythm section.

 

[jerry]

FWIW, I was more a WR guy vs. RTF...for some reason, Al Dimeola did not float my boat at all.

Ditto! I dug Bill Conners playing with RTW a lot more than Al, Bill played with a lot more soul and passion IMHO.

 

[JimK]

He didn't play the bass on that tune he "Attacked" the bass...

I remember reading a similar review about a Cecil Taylor solo concert(maybe in Downbeat?)-
Taylor didn't play the piano, he conquered the piano.

...or sumthin' like that.

 

[Scott in Dallas]

Ok,

Before I started reading talkbass I'ld never heard of Jaco. I own some victor and some les claypool and a bunch of other bass music that I considered pretty high end. After seeing everyone "Jaco this..." "Jaco that ..." I got excited and went out today to track down the holy grail of bass playing to hear for myself.

My god it sucks.

Let me clarify. Its technically pretty over the top hard. I agree he was a master of his particular play style.

Its just about as interesting to listen to as crickets mating.

let me give you a comparison to let you know where I am on this. mmm Gymnastics, its hard ( I certainly can't do them ) very demanding and takes a lot of physical talent 999k out of a million don't have. But its about as fun to watch as Oprah talking to Dr. Phil about hemmoroids.

And in case your a Dr Phil/hemmoroid/Oprah/Gymnastics fan let me give you another example.

Its kind of like Joe Satriani on guitar. Joe had a couple of really awesome songs but most of them are so "out there" that you just can't enjoy them. You might listen to 15 seconds of it and go "wow he is awesome good" [trackskip] "woah this one is even harder" [trackskip] .. "hey lets listen to some AC/DC" .. "yea"

Not implying that everyone is a ACDC fan, if you hate ACDC insert the name of any band that grooves and isn't too complicated but you love them just the same.


-Rav

Somebody didn't skip past "Donna Lee"

 

[Vorago]

Great post again. thanks very much for that.

ps what does IMO and IMHO mean?

In
My
(Humble)
Opinion

 

[thewhitesheep]

People that tend to say that Jaco was "unemotional" or only a "wanker" should listen to his playing on Joni Mitchell`s Hejira. Any comment like those above will sound rather foolish and ignorant if you have not listened to "Hejira" before.

 

[JamesM]

People that tend to say that Jaco was "unemotional" or only a "wanker" should listen to his playing on Joni Mitchell`s Hejira. Any comment like those above will sound rather foolish and ignorant if you have not listened to "Hejira" before.

yea, listen to 'refuge of the road', it oozes emotion.

 

[Alan Vorse]

I have played Jaco's first album for students, and some have been put off by the sound being kind of dated (One said Come On Come Over was a disco song) or they don't like Fender's because they are "old" sounding and don't have active pickups.

I have also found in the last 5-10 years, that when it comes to Jaco, Hendrix, Beatles and even Zeppelin, there is sort of a "Some old dude says I'm supposed to like this, so I'll show them and not like it" attitude. While IMO these people are idiots, it does seem like the powers that be kind of cram these artists down people's throats and say "You must like this or else!!!"
The thing is, these people ARE important. If it were not for them, we would not be where we are as musicians today. So the idea must be reinforced.

As for the theme in this thread about repeated listenings and working to appreciate something. Vernon Reid just said the very same thing in the latest issue of Downbeat. That you can say something sucks, but did you spend some time with it and let it reveal itself to you?
I didn't like Matt Garrison's Shapeshifter CD when I first heard it, now I can't get it out of the player.

Conversely, I keep going back to the Grateful Dead after 15 years, hoping I might find out what the fuss is all about, and no such luck. I guess at least I am trying. And after a week of the White Stripes, I think I like them less than when I started.

I guess there is something to be said for both sides.

 

[slap_happy]

Also his playing on "Bright Size Life" (Pat Metheny) is unreal.

+1