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James Jamersons lack of recognition

think that is one of the things that made him so unique. He had a specific way of playing in his head, and in his heart, and he stuck to that. That's one of the many things I respect about the man.

Yes I respect that too, but understand that music was changing around that time and JJ was stuck in Detroit people in LA were going in a different direction. It's too bad too because I think he had a lot left in him and would probably be around today had he been able to adapt. On another note, I here his son is a pretty good bass player too.
 
I really hope that I can articulate this in a way which doesn't offend anyone and I hope that it will be read in that spirit.

Younger players may not recognize the musical culture that James Jamerson was coming out of. Today's music industry is completely corporate controlled, pre-programmed and co-opted. The Motown musicians were jazz musicians coming from a jazz lifestyle. Nowadays, the word jazz means that nice background music that you hear at Starbucks or at a corporate cocktail party, but back then it meant a lifestyle associated with heavy drinking, heroin and a generally dodgy way of living. Now, of course, wealthy parents send their kids to college to get a dergree in jazz, it wasn't like that back in the 40's and 50's when those guys were coming up- being a muiscian was not considered respectable in any sense of the word. I don't think that there was much of a chance that those guys were going to get it together and organize some proper recognition and compensation from the label. We all say "Oh man, I'd have love to have hung out with James Jamerson". The truth is, his huge talent notwithstanding, most of us would not have enjoyed hanging out with some of these bad-ass Detroit cats. I think one of the great lessons of the Jaco story is that one's talent only counts for so much when one becomes a drunk annoying screw up. Even his best friends were turning him away towards the end of his life.

This is not to imply that they were not taken advantage of by Motown. There has always been someone on the sideline waiting to take advantage of messed up musicians. It's almost the law of the universe: scummy guys waiting to take advantage of musicians, and musicians doing everything to let them. It's like a self fulfilling prophecy of failure.

My day job is at an agency that books music for corporate and private functions. I have very mixed feelings about it. On one hand, we payed over 1 million dollars to very talented musicains last year and they are generally people who have no other discernable job skills. These are not guys who could get an office job and they are all people whom I genuinely like and respect so I'm glad we've provided work for them. They are monster jazz/R&B musicians who have been gigging since they were teenagers and haven't developed the skills that one needs to be a grownup. They are all just absolute beasts on their instruments- world class, the real deal- you've seen some of them in magazines. I work with guys who have toured and recorded with David Bowie, Brian Mcknight, Michael Jackson, Prince, the Bee Gees, Chaka Khan, Aretha Franklin, The Arsenio Hall Show band and the Wu Tang Clan. Almost without exception, every single one of them has more than 6 kids by different woman whom they haven't married, many of them drink hard liquor and get high every single day of their life, they all have tax problems, bad credit and child support issues and they have absolutely no investments, retirement plans or any health insurance. It's hard to not feel that they are living a jazz lifestyle that has brought down msuicans since the 1920s. Interestingly enough, I am glad to report that the bass players I work with seem to have it together more than some of their bandmates. I don't know why, it's just something I've noticed.
 
Knowing most of these guys, I'd have to agree with you, but to a point. It seems to me that some of the guys at the higher level remembers the tales of the "cats" from back in the day, and they're not trying to live like that, but you're right about the lifesyles of some of these guys. I've hung out with George Clinton, Bootsy, and some other legendary cats, and some of them STILL live the "life".
 
corinpills, I happen to think Motown was the start of the business is music movement in society. I mean to say motown's music was not factory produced would be crazy. anytime you have 10 singers or songwriters passing through a room using the same band to record all their hits your doing exactly what motown and companies today do. I mean it's just a formula. the players just happen to be incredible. Also using jazz (and jazz not elevator jazz) to validate yourself as a musician is a waste of time. Just do what you like. But motown music was very corporate in it's making distrubition and marketing. People didn't buy albums because james jamerson was on it. they bought it because it came from motown and had marvin gaye's name on it. Marvin was a popstar. and we don't recognize the bands of popstars. to bring this into a modern perspective.....

who played bass on justin Timberlake's solo album?

Also I recommend giving it a listen I think justin timberlakes new album is very good. Kind of a white guys interpretation of Off the Wall.
 
Originally posted by chris griffiths
corinpills, I happen to think Motown was the start of the business is music movement in society. I mean to say motown's music was not factory produced would be crazy. anytime you have 10 singers or songwriters passing through a room using the same band to record all their hits your doing exactly what motown and companies today do. I mean it's just a formula. the players just happen to be incredible. Also using jazz (and jazz not elevator jazz) to validate yourself as a musician is a waste of time. Just do what you like. But motown music was very corporate in it's making distrubition and marketing. People didn't buy albums because james jamerson was on it. they bought it because it came from motown and had marvin gaye's name on it. Marvin was a popstar. and we don't recognize the bands of popstars. to bring this into a modern perspective.....

who played bass on justin Timberlake's solo album?

Also I recommend giving it a listen I think justin timberlakes new album is very good. Kind of a white guys interpretation of Off the Wall.

Yeah, but back then, the acts were found by Gordy or other people from the Motown label. They weren't just put together by the company and told to do this and that, such as most of the "Making the Band" things on MTV or whatever. Today's artists are manufactured by the label, told to sing songs and dance around for them.

Not to mention that Motown acts could actually sing (well, maybe Christina Aguilara is an exception).

FWIW, I also like Timberlake's album, Pharell is a genius. Best producer today other than Timberland.
 
Well, despite who I think is talented or not, I just draw a lot of similarities between the motown business ethic and today's music business. I happen to think as a business music is based off of berry's blueprint. throw a singer in there have them sing 10 songs at least 3 will be hits. and if they don't hit with the pips let Marvin sing it maybe it'll work for him. also another similarity I see is the way motown would just look at what was up and coming and lift just enough of it to stay fresh. Like when the Temptation slowly started turning into a funk band and people like aretha franklin were making disco tunes. It went from blues to the motown sound, to a funky motown sound, to the disco sound with harmonies. we see that today when a producer like the Neptunes or Timbaland gets big all of the sudden everybody has an element of them in their music (probably because in cases like th Neptunes, they are producing everybody).

I can really trace this milking the musician all the way back to Billie Holiday and Lena Horn. Motown was just one of the first ones to do it in mass production.
 
Originally posted by corinpills
I really hope that I can articulate this in a way which doesn't offend anyone and I hope that it will be read in that spirit.

Younger players may not recognize the musical culture that James Jamerson was coming out of. Today's music industry is completely corporate controlled, pre-programmed and co-opted. The Motown musicians were jazz musicians coming from a jazz lifestyle. Nowadays, the word jazz means that nice background music that you hear at Starbucks or at a corporate cocktail party, but back then it meant a lifestyle associated with heavy drinking, heroin and a generally dodgy way of living. Now, of course, wealthy parents send their kids to college to get a dergree in jazz, it wasn't like that back in the 40's and 50's when those guys were coming up- being a muiscian was not considered respectable in any sense of the word. I don't think that there was much of a chance that those guys were going to get it together and organize some proper recognition and compensation from the label. We all say "Oh man, I'd have love to have hung out with James Jamerson". The truth is, his huge talent notwithstanding, most of us would not have enjoyed hanging out with some of these bad-ass Detroit cats. I think one of the great lessons of the Jaco story is that one's talent only counts for so much when one becomes a drunk annoying screw up. Even his best friends were turning him away towards the end of his life.

This is not to imply that they were not taken advantage of by Motown. There has always been someone on the sideline waiting to take advantage of messed up musicians. It's almost the law of the universe: scummy guys waiting to take advantage of musicians, and musicians doing everything to let them. It's like a self fulfilling prophecy of failure.

My day job is at an agency that books music for corporate and private functions. I have very mixed feelings about it. On one hand, we payed over 1 million dollars to very talented musicains last year and they are generally people who have no other discernable job skills. These are not guys who could get an office job and they are all people whom I genuinely like and respect so I'm glad we've provided work for them. They are monster jazz/R&B musicians who have been gigging since they were teenagers and haven't developed the skills that one needs to be a grownup. They are all just absolute beasts on their instruments- world class, the real deal- you've seen some of them in magazines. I work with guys who have toured and recorded with David Bowie, Brian Mcknight, Michael Jackson, Prince, the Bee Gees, Chaka Khan, Aretha Franklin, The Arsenio Hall Show band and the Wu Tang Clan. Almost without exception, every single one of them has more than 6 kids by different woman whom they haven't married, many of them drink hard liquor and get high every single day of their life, they all have tax problems, bad credit and child support issues and they have absolutely no investments, retirement plans or any health insurance. It's hard to not feel that they are living a jazz lifestyle that has brought down msuicans since the 1920s. Interestingly enough, I am glad to report that the bass players I work with seem to have it together more than some of their bandmates. I don't know why, it's just something I've noticed.

Man. That is sad but O so true.
 
Originally posted by corinpills
The truth is, his huge talent notwithstanding, most of us would not have enjoyed hanging out with some of these bad-ass Detroit cats. I think one of the great lessons of the Jaco story is that one's talent only counts for so much when one becomes a drunk annoying screw up. Even his best friends were turning him away towards the end of his life.

am I right in recalling there was a story that Jamerson once turned up in the studio with a gun, and was often deliberately intimidating towards other bassists - I'm sure there was something about it in a BP story somewhere.
 
You're right, Chris. For bad or good, the genius of Berry Gordy is that he took his Ford assembly line approach and applied it to pop music. Considering the economic reality of groups like the Temptations, The Supremes, The Four Tops- all kids who gew up in the projects if I remember correctly, he essentially rescued a lot of them from poverty. That's the double edged sword of Motown. All the Motown musicians and artists (do NOT get Martha Reeves started) are always talking about how they were exploited, but the bottom line is that they were exploitable. They were talented kids growing up in circumstances that would probably not have allowed them to succeed otherwise.

This is a tired old story in entertainment. I mean, in the particular case of my job, I honestly do have mixed feelings about it. Essentially, I have a job that is created totally by musicians' inability to market themselves or present themselves properly (in an age when there are dozens of books written on the suject). It really depresses me sometimes. I work with guys who are simply amazing musicians, but that's simply not enough. If they had their act together at all, they wouldn't need me. The people who are writing the checks are really straight business people and you can't send some freaked out drummer who smells like a bar and is missing some teeth in to have a meeting with the alumni relations woman at Harvard- that's the reality of the sitaution.

Truth of the matter is that there are plenty of organized, presentable musicians who have their marketing skills together...but nobody wants to hire them. Every time I try to book some white-bread band in khakis, the client always picks the hardcore ghetto cats that play their asses off. My whole job is to be a buffer zone between these two disparate lifestyles. It's me telling the corporate people "Oh, don't worry, they won't be late." and then begging the musicians to not be late (and they're always late). It's just a weird way to make a living.
 
I've only heard of James Jamerson here on Talkbass.

Well here's a little list I found of songs you guys can go look for. I'm very suprised many of you have never heard of Jamerson before you logged onto TB!

My Girl - Temptations
Bernadette - 4 Tops
Aint That Peculiar - Marvin Gaye
Ooh Baby Baby - The Miracles
To Many Fish In The Sea - The Marvelettes
Uptight (Everything Is Alright) - Stevie Wonder
Heat Wave (U) - Martha & The Vandellas
This Old Heart Of Mine - Isley Brothers
I Heard It Through The Grapevine (2 recordings) - Marvin Gaye, Gladys Knight & Pips
Where Did Our Love Go (U) - Diana/Supremes
Since I Lost My Baby - Temptations
For Once In My Life - Stevie Wonder
My Guy (U) - Mary Wells
Your Precious Love - Marvin Gaye/Tammy Terrell
You've Really Got A Hold On Me - The Miracles
Love Child - Diana/Supremes
I Guess I'll Always Love you
Dancing In The Streets - Martha & The Vandellas
Don't Mess With Bill - The Marvelettes
What's Going On - Marvin Gaye
Standing In The Shadows Of Love - 4 Tops
Mickey's Monkey (U) - The Miracles
Cloud Nine - Temptations
Nothing's To Good For My Baby - Temptations
My Baby Loves Me - Martha & The Vandellas
You Keep Me Hanging On - Diana/Supremes
You Beat Me To The Punch - Mary Wells
Little Darling (I Need You) - 4 Tops
I'm Ready For Love
The Way You Do The Things You Do - Temptations
I Can't Help Myself - 4 Tops
Roadrunner - Jr. Walker & The All-Stars
You're All I Need To Get By - Temptations
You Can't Hurry Love - Diana/Supremes
Shop Around - The Miracles
Ain't To Proud To Beg - Temptations
My Cherie Amour - Stevie Wonder
It's The Same Old Song - 4 Tops
How Sweet It Is - Marvin Gaye
Take Me In Your Arms - Brenda Holloway
Ain't No Mountain High Enough (2 recordings) - Marvin Gaye/Tammy Terrell, Diana/Supremes
My Baby Must Be A Magician - The Marvelettes
Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart - Diana/Supremes
Beauty Is Only Skin Deep - Temptations
Ask The Lonely - 4 Tops
Going To A Go-Go - The Miracles
I was Made To Love Her - Stevie Wonder
Hitch Hike - Marvin Gaye
I Second That Emotion - The Miracles
Please Mr. Postman - The Marvelettes
Jimmy Mack (U) - Martha & The Vandellas
I Hear A Symphony - Diana/Supremes
Shake Me, Wake Me (When It's Over) - 4 Tops
I'm Gonna Make You Love Me - Temptations
Get Ready - Temptations
The Hunter Gets Captured By The Game
Stop! In The Name Of Love - Diana/Supremes
That's What Love Is Made Of
Nowhere To Run - Martha & The Vandellas
Seven Rooms Of Gloom - 4 Tops
Pride & Joy - Marvin Gaye
(I Know) I'm Losing You - Temptations
Two Lovers - Mary Wells
I'll Turn To Stone - 4 Tops
Come See About Me - Diana/Supremes
Stubborn Kind Of Fellow - Marvin Gaye
How Long Has That Evening Train Been Gone
If I Were your Woman Gladys Knight & The Pips
My World Is Empty Without You - Diana/Supremes
The Tracks Of My Tears - The Miracles
I'm Wondering - Stevie Wonder
Can I Get A Witness - Marvin Gaye
The Girls Alright With Me - Temptations
Shoo Be Doo Be Doo Da Day - Stevie Wonder
Reflections - Diana/Supremes
What Becomes Of The Broken Hearted - Temptations
Baby I Need Your Loving - 4 Tops
Quicksand... - Martha & The Vandellas
Reach Out...I'll Be There - 4 Tops
You Beat Me To The Punch - Mary Wells
The Bells - The Originals
Shotgun - Jr. Walker & The All-Stars
Fingertips (pt2)- Stevie Wonder
Hey Girl - Stevie Wonder
What Are You Gonna Do When I'm Gone (U) - Kim Weston (submitted by Chuck Whaley)
Still Water Runs Deep - Four Tops (Chuck Whaley)
All in the Game - Four Tops (Chuck Whaley)
My Baby - Temptations
The One Who Really Loves You (U)- Mary Wells
This Old Heart Of Mine - Isley Brothers
My Whole World Ended (The Moment You Left) - David Ruffin
It Takes Two (U) - Marvin Gaye/Tammy Terrell
Honey Chile - Martha & the Vandellas
To Busy Thinking About My Baby - Marvin Gaye
When Your Young And In Love - Marvelettes
Ain't Nothing Like The Real Thing - Marvin Gaye/Tammy Terrell
Still Waters Run Deep - Four Tops
If I Were Your Woman - Gladys Knight & the Pips
I Want You Back - Jackson 5
It's Growing - The Temptations
Agent Double O Soul - Edwin Starr
I Can't Get Next To You - Temptations
I want A Love I can Feel - Temptations
Heart Breaking Guy - Supremes


Huh, never heard of Jamerson. Yes he is all over tha map!