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James Jamersons lack of recognition
- Thread starter Fire-Starter
- Start date
http://bassland.net/jamerson.html
Check out the: "Who Played "I Was Made to Love" Her? The Carol Kaye-James Jamerson Enigma" section.
Check out the: "Who Played "I Was Made to Love" Her? The Carol Kaye-James Jamerson Enigma" section.
Hi All,
About 30+ posts back. There was a post from Paul A who makes the statement that "Carol Kaye's name would come up". Maybe a year or two ago there would have been several of her supporters on this thread like flies on sugar swearing up and down that she played "Bernadette" or "I Was Made To Love Her" amoung other songs featuring Jamerson on bass.
I believe it shows the impact of the book/movie SITSOM on the missguided individuals that have in the past tried to support the notion that Kaye was the bassist on those 60's Motown Records when she was not. The issue of Jamerson's recognition may have been relevent before SITSOM but there is hardly any doubt now!
I am glad it took 30+ post for Paul A's prediction to come true.
BassLand
http://bassland.net/jamerson.html
http://bassland.net
About 30+ posts back. There was a post from Paul A who makes the statement that "Carol Kaye's name would come up". Maybe a year or two ago there would have been several of her supporters on this thread like flies on sugar swearing up and down that she played "Bernadette" or "I Was Made To Love Her" amoung other songs featuring Jamerson on bass.
I believe it shows the impact of the book/movie SITSOM on the missguided individuals that have in the past tried to support the notion that Kaye was the bassist on those 60's Motown Records when she was not. The issue of Jamerson's recognition may have been relevent before SITSOM but there is hardly any doubt now!
I am glad it took 30+ post for Paul A's prediction to come true.
BassLand
http://bassland.net/jamerson.html
http://bassland.net
Told ya so.......
Credit where it's due, Jamerson was awesome,and Carol was pretty damn good on the stuff that there is no dispute she played on (Good Vibrations etc).
I'm glad it took 30 or more posts too!
Credit where it's due, Jamerson was awesome,and Carol was pretty damn good on the stuff that there is no dispute she played on (Good Vibrations etc).
I'm glad it took 30 or more posts too!
This site suggested by John K was very interesting. I have for many years admired Carol Kaye's playing technique. Believe me, I thought many of those songs listed [ and that she allegedly takes credit for ] were her work. I find it very disapointing to learn that this is all false, apparently.
Thanks for helping me clarify this, I have been operating with a false impression for years.
What bothers me most is WHY would someone WANT to claim someone else's musical legacy?
That really, really astounds me.
I grew up on the 4 Tops and Smokey as a kid, so these lines are near and dear to my musical heart.
BTW, does anyone know who played the bass for the STAX revue, specifically, who did the work on
Otis Redding's stuff. I always thought they rocked the house [ Need proof, find the 'Monterey Pop Festival'. Veteran rocker Mick Jagger was quoted as saying that Otis was one of the people he would NOT want to follow in a gig. ] This would have been
the Steve Cropper band with the Stax horns.
Just curious while we were on Soul.
The Big O #2
Well, it is possible that she played a track for those songs, but Jamerson did as well. They just used his track instead. Carol's claims about certain things just blow my mind (I won't bring em up here though).
Otis Redding's bassist was Donald "Duck" Dunn, another great "groove-ist".
Otis Redding's bassist was Donald "Duck" Dunn, another great "groove-ist".
Kaca de Kick, Nice list but I've heard that Carol Kay played bass on several of those songs. Is there a definitive list somewhere?
Allan Slutsky did extensive research on this.
Allan (Dr. Licks) Slutsky
"Who Played "I Was Made to Love" Her?
The Carol Kaye-James Jamerson Enigma"
He was dead, buried, and forgotten. Even 99% of the bass players in the world had no idea who he was. But in the last seven years, his life and music have been center stage amidst an explosion of newspaper and magazine articles (more than 350 worldwide), a long overdue biography, and an upcoming film documentary. The Fender custom shop has made a signature bass in his name, flatwound strings have begun selling again, and in the last two years, the recording company that had employed him for a decade and a half finally gave him official recognition in the liner notes of 3 recent historical CD box sets.
After three decades of obscurity, musicians and music lovers throughout the world were discovering the holy grail of the bass world-James Jamerson, the tormented genius whose earthquake-heavy bass lines fueled the Motown hit machine through the '60s and early '70s. Even though it was posthumous, he was finally getting his long overdue recognition.
And everyone lived happily ever after, right? Not exactly. As Jamerson rose in prominence, his reputation was given a serious challenge through the media by another icon of the bass, Carol Kaye. Well aware of her claims through the years about her recording sessions with the Supremes, Four Tops, Stevie Wonder, and other stars in Berry Gordy's stable, I contacted her in 1987 when I first began my research for STANDING IN THE SHADOWS OF MOTOWN: The Life and Music of Legendary Bassist James Jamerson. This was done out of the highest regard for Carol's monumental achievements and contributions to the bass, and popular music in general. My intention was to find out first-hand what she had played on so I could avoid stepping on her toes.
I had expected her to name a few significant hits but was floored when she laid claim to "Bernadette", "Reach Out", "Baby Love", "I Was Made to Love Her", "Ain't No Mountain High Enough", "Dancing In the Streets", "Can't Help Myself", and dozens of others Motown classics-in short, the majority of James Jamerson's signature performances.
At that point I decided to rethink the entire project. If I could substantiate Carol's allegations, I would write the book about her instead of Jamerson. I expected my research to turn up pros and cons for each player's position, along with the usual grey areas you can expect when researching multiple claims to the same material. Instead, what I found was overwhelmingly conclusive evidence that James Jamerson played the tunes in question. Here are the facts that my research turned up:
1) The songwriting-production team of Holland-Dozier-Holland attested to the fact that James Jamerson played on almost every one of their productions, and they never allowed others to produce songs that they had written. Brian Holland signed a notarized affidavit categorically stating that "Bernadette", "Reach Out", "Can't Help Myself", "Keep Me Hanging On", "Standing in the Shadows of Love", "Reflections", "Baby Love", "Back In My Arms Again", "Come See About Me", and "Can't Hurry Love", (all tunes claimed by Carol) were in fact, played by James Jamerson. Most damning was his statement that he had never even heard of Carol Kaye.
2) Smokey Robinson who wrote or produced probably 30-40 percent of Motown's biggest hits also denied that she had any major role in the Motown story, and had no part at all on the songs in question.
3) The performance credit that Carol has pursued with the greatest tenacity over the years is the bass part on Stevie Wonder's "I Was Made to Love Her". Hank Cosby who co-wrote, produced it, and who, in his own words, "was there every step of the way from the writing of the song to the day the 45's were shipped", vehemently denied any participation by Carol Kaye on this recording. Cosby added, "Fifty percent of the song was James Jamerson's bass line. No one played like that but Jamerson." Cosby also signed an affidavit similar to Brian Holland's attesting to Jamerson's performance.
*********Point-Counterpoint: Carol's Side of the Story**********
1) The Politics of Race and Gender-Carol contends that Motown was afraid to admit that a white female bassist was the driving force behind some of their biggest hits. They wanted to push a black male agenda.
There are two faults with this argument. First of all, when it came to musicians, Motown had no racial or gender bias. They were all faceless cogs to them. Regardless of whether they were black, white, female, male, or Martian, they weren't going to get any recognition-period! It was a star driven phenomena and the company never gave the slightest thought to publicizing background figures. In addition, the Motown studio band (which was called the Funk Brothers) was not exclusively black. Guitarists Joe Messina and Dennis Coffey, percussionist Jack Brokensha, arranger Dave Van dePitte, and bassist Bob Babbit, who also played quite a few important Motown dates, were all white.
2) Improvised vs. Written Parts - Her claim to "Reach Out" is based upon her contention that "discerning musicians can hear that the parts weren't improvised. It was a written part". James Jamerson regularly improvised and sight read parts of that complexity. Part of his genius was that he could take a written part and make it sound as if it was his. Regardless of this argument, I have a photocopy of the original Union contract from the "Reach Out" session. It's dated July 6, 1966 (the year of the tune's release), it lists James Jamerson as the bassist (for which he received the princely sum of $61.00), and Detroit's Hitsville studio is indicated as the place where it was recorded. Carol herself admits that she never recorded in Detroit.
3) The West Coast Connection-Carol maintains that a great deal of Motown's output was being cut on the West Coast in Los Angeles.
That is true, but don't forget that Motown also had acts like Tony Martin, James Darren, and Soupy Sales signed to their label. There were also various Broadway and Las Vegas style orchestrated albums produced like the the Temptations in a Mellow Mood and The Four Tops on Broadway, not to mention the constant demand for filler material on albums. There was plenty of work to go around and Detroit could not possibly handle all of it. Frank Wilson who produced hits for Motown in both Detroit and Los Angeles supports Carol's claim that she worked numerous sessions for the company. However, he qualifies it by stating, "They used her a lot but not on the hard core R&B stuff. That stuff came out of Detroit. They didn't like her sound for R&B because she played with a pick. It didn't have that fat round sound that Jamerson got with his fingers."
4) "I Was Made to Love Her"-According to Carol, this tune was recorded at Armin Steiner's studio and she recalls "I didn't like the final written riff that I played high up in unison with the horns. You can also hear where I was scuffling a bit with open strings a couple of times".
Now it starts to get complicated. First of all, the detailed studio log that Carol kept does not support her position. The log lists every date she played from 1963-1971. She painstakingly listed artists, studios, record labels, contractors and arrangers on each date. "I Was Made to Love Her" was released in 1967 which means it was cut in '66 or '67. There are no listings for a session at Steiner's or a Stevie Wonder date during that time span.
As far as "scuffling" around, the performance is perfect. Don't trust my ears. Trust the auditory ability of one of the world's most highly regarded bassists-lifelong Jamerson devotee, Anthony Jackson. He couldn't hear what she was talking about either. The "final written riff played in unison with the horns" argument also is problematic. "I Was Made To Love Her" is rhythm section and strings. There are no horns on that record.
5) Ask My Friends-Carol asked me to talk to Gene Page, Jerry Steinholtz, Earl Palmer, and some of the other studio musicians who played the West Coast Motown sessions with her. She felt they would back up her story.
I didn't just call a few of them. I talked to every one she recommended, naming the songs in question and telling them about Carol's claims. Arranger Gene Page immediately burst out laughing and said, "She said that? No way . . . never. That stuff was all Jamerson". Percussionist Steinholtz remembered playing Motown sessions with Carol but that was as much as he could remember. The closest I got to her viewpoint was with veteran R&B session drummer Earl Palmer who bristled at my suggestion that perhaps they played the demo versions of the songs in question. "Hell no!", he countered. "We weren't playing demos. We were playing hits". The only problem was that he also couldn't remember any song titles.
Now we all know that studio musicians live by their reputations, so remembering hits that they played on is of paramount importance. If they had even remembered one title-just one-I would have had something to pursue, but as it stood, they gave me no material at all to back up her story. Back in Detroit, In stark contrast to my California research, the Funk Brothers remembered everything- song titles, intricate details, times, dates, and fellow musicians on the session and it all revolved around James Jamerson.
6) The Great Cover-Up-Carol has accused many of Motown's producers of conducting illegal non-union, under scale sessions, and in efforts to cover their backs, they refuse to admit working with her.
First of all, if the sessions were illegal, why was a union musician like Carol playing them in direct violation of union rules? Secondly, the Motown story is full of lawsuits and union problems but that doesn't exactly strike fear in their hearts. It's just business as usual. James Jamerson certainly played under scale Motown sessions at different times. Why do these same producers admit working with him?
7) Demos That Became Hits-Amidst the thousand of studio dates in Carol's logs, quite a few are marked as demos and many of those were with Motown. According to her, the company misled the musicians because many of these sessions became the actual records.
Carol may have a legitimate grievance in this instance but not in regard to the songs in question. When the recent Platinum CD Box set The Hitsville Singles Collection was produced two years ago, most of the songs in question were pulled from the vaults and re-mastered. Motown's filing system lists whether the songs were recorded in Detroit or Los Angeles (and in a few instances in New York) on each storage box. All the disputed songs were listed as being cut in Detroit.
During the sixties and seventies, Carol Kaye contributed more to popular music than most musicians, including myself, could hope to equal in several lifetimes. By all accounts of people who know her well, she is also a wonderful, warm, loving person. I have no desire in any way to hurt her or ruin her reputation, but as James Jamerson's biographer, I do have a responsibility to him. James died a brokenhearted alcoholic, tortured by the lack of recognition for his his part in the Motown story. It took the world thirty years to find out and appreciate exactly what he did and I intend to further that recognition to the best of my abilities. If that includes defending him in the face of unfounded attacks on his life's work, so be it.
I'm still open to any information which would change the story and support Carol Kaye's version but so far, I've yet to find a single shred of evidence. I'd even go as far as to say that I wouldn't doubt that somewhere out there, there is some evidence that would support her claims on a few disputed songs.
She has my humblest apologies for the few that I may have missed. But when you're talking about "Bernadette", "Reach Out", "Baby Love", "I Was Made to Love Her", "Ain't No Mountain High Enough", "Dancing In the Streets", "Can't Help Myself", Standing In The Shadows of Love", "You Keep Me Hangin' On", and dozens of others . . . Sorry Carol. That magical legacy belongs to someone else.
Taken from Bassland.net
Also, buy the "Standing In The Shadows Of Motown" book.
First of all, if the sessions were illegal, why was a union musician like Carol playing them in direct violation of union rules? Secondly, the Motown story is full of lawsuits and union problems but that doesn't exactly strike fear in their hearts. It's just business as usual. James Jamerson certainly played under scale Motown sessions at different times. Why do these same producers admit working with him?
7) Demos That Became Hits-Amidst the thousand of studio dates in Carol's logs, quite a few are marked as demos and many of those were with Motown. According to her, the company misled the musicians because many of these sessions became the actual records.
Carol may have a legitimate grievance in this instance but not in regard to the songs in question. When the recent Platinum CD Box set The Hitsville Singles Collection was produced two years ago, most of the songs in question were pulled from the vaults and re-mastered. Motown's filing system lists whether the songs were recorded in Detroit or Los Angeles (and in a few instances in New York) on each storage box. All the disputed songs were listed as being cut in Detroit.
During the sixties and seventies, Carol Kaye contributed more to popular music than most musicians, including myself, could hope to equal in several lifetimes. By all accounts of people who know her well, she is also a wonderful, warm, loving person. I have no desire in any way to hurt her or ruin her reputation, but as James Jamerson's biographer, I do have a responsibility to him. James died a brokenhearted alcoholic, tortured by the lack of recognition for his his part in the Motown story. It took the world thirty years to find out and appreciate exactly what he did and I intend to further that recognition to the best of my abilities. If that includes defending him in the face of unfounded attacks on his life's work, so be it.
I'm still open to any information which would change the story and support Carol Kaye's version but so far, I've yet to find a single shred of evidence. I'd even go as far as to say that I wouldn't doubt that somewhere out there, there is some evidence that would support her claims on a few disputed songs.
She has my humblest apologies for the few that I may have missed. But when you're talking about "Bernadette", "Reach Out", "Baby Love", "I Was Made to Love Her", "Ain't No Mountain High Enough", "Dancing In the Streets", "Can't Help Myself", Standing In The Shadows of Love", "You Keep Me Hangin' On", and dozens of others . . . Sorry Carol. That magical legacy belongs to someone else.
Taken from Bassland.net
Also, buy the "Standing In The Shadows Of Motown" book.
Well... I saw the post and browsed over the replies. Didn't see it, but please excuse me if this redundant; James "the hook" Jamerson was actually just over 47&1/2 when he passed away in August of 1983.
So far, in a bi-annual "Rock n' Roll Show" that I've played in for five different shows, I've had to play Jamerson's lines for; "Baby Love", "Keep Me Hangin' On", and "Can't Hurry Love" - The Supremes
"Ain't No Mountain High Enough" - Marvin Gaye w/Tammi Terrell
"Nowhere to Run" - Martha and the Vandellas
"Heard it Through the Grapevine" - Gladys Knight and the Pips
"Heard it Through the Grapevine", "Ain't No Mountain...", and "Can't Hurry Love" were some of the hardest lines to figure out, respectively... I worked on 'Grapevine' for atleast two-weeks straight!
That man was wicked... michael s.
So far, in a bi-annual "Rock n' Roll Show" that I've played in for five different shows, I've had to play Jamerson's lines for; "Baby Love", "Keep Me Hangin' On", and "Can't Hurry Love" - The Supremes
"Ain't No Mountain High Enough" - Marvin Gaye w/Tammi Terrell
"Nowhere to Run" - Martha and the Vandellas
"Heard it Through the Grapevine" - Gladys Knight and the Pips
"Heard it Through the Grapevine", "Ain't No Mountain...", and "Can't Hurry Love" were some of the hardest lines to figure out, respectively... I worked on 'Grapevine' for atleast two-weeks straight!
That man was wicked... michael s.
Ziggy,
Jamerson was born in 1936 and was just 6 months into his 47th year when he passed.
I left a message "LOL" a few posts ago but so no one missinterprets the meaning of it, in response to the notion that maybe they both played on the record... there is no (I repeat no) chance that Kaye played on the original records. Anything else is just BullSh*t. I can tell you how may times I have "recorded" Bernadette (mostly on live recordings) but I am not about to try and infringe on Jamerson's legacy.
BTW since the SITSOM movie about the Funk Brothers of whom Jamerson was a member, there has not been much from the CK camp on these issues. I bet she would rather have never said that at this point. I know that is how I would feel if I were her.
BassLand
Jamerson was born in 1936 and was just 6 months into his 47th year when he passed.
I left a message "LOL" a few posts ago but so no one missinterprets the meaning of it, in response to the notion that maybe they both played on the record... there is no (I repeat no) chance that Kaye played on the original records. Anything else is just BullSh*t. I can tell you how may times I have "recorded" Bernadette (mostly on live recordings) but I am not about to try and infringe on Jamerson's legacy.
BTW since the SITSOM movie about the Funk Brothers of whom Jamerson was a member, there has not been much from the CK camp on these issues. I bet she would rather have never said that at this point. I know that is how I would feel if I were her.
BassLand
you know in the Jamerson issue of bass player they had a while back, Bob Babbitt had a column on how players sometimes end up thinking they are playing on a session when they are not. He himself is a victim of other people stealing his glory. so I think it is possible that carol played a session and then james played the session at a later date. But I don't think it did happen. Carol's a great player I don't know what's goin on in her head
At least Jamerson and Bob Babbitt worked for Motown and were in Detroit. I could understand a little confusion there (ie Cool Jerk which they both recorded but Babbitt got on the record) WHy don't you go to http://soulfuldetroit.com/forum/
Bob Babbitt is there a lot along with other Motown people (engineers, musicians and producers) why don't you go there and find out the truth.
Definately there were Motown (or Detrroit in general) producers that recorded sides with different players but the groove they had there would not have included a guitar player who plays bass with a pick.
Another thought provocked(sp) by Chris' statement. It would imply that Carol created the lines and the great James Jamerson copied her line. Now that's FUNNY
Bob Babbitt is there a lot along with other Motown people (engineers, musicians and producers) why don't you go there and find out the truth.
Definately there were Motown (or Detrroit in general) producers that recorded sides with different players but the groove they had there would not have included a guitar player who plays bass with a pick.
Another thought provocked(sp) by Chris' statement. It would imply that Carol created the lines and the great James Jamerson copied her line. Now that's FUNNY
WOAH!!!!! you took way too much from my statement. I love james Jamersons' bass playing. and yes I make provocative statements now and again, but I was just poking a little fun at the Carol Kaye issue I really don't believe she played those bass lines. Look I'm from Detroit Motown is my thing. I have the shadows book memorized and saw the movie 8 to 9 times. I've met Bob he's a great guy. I've also met Carol and seen her play and I can't take away from her. It's all good. don't worry
james and carol couldn't touch Jerry Jemmott
james and carol couldn't touch Jerry Jemmott
Chris,
No problem but the statement you made in jest was made more than once by others who really buy into this CK Motown thing. I did not mean to imply that you said it was her playing on those Motown tunes. but you gotta admit the notion of her "teaching" Jamerson how to play Motown is funny...
BL
PS it is a great movie isn't it?
No problem but the statement you made in jest was made more than once by others who really buy into this CK Motown thing. I did not mean to imply that you said it was her playing on those Motown tunes. but you gotta admit the notion of her "teaching" Jamerson how to play Motown is funny...
BL
PS it is a great movie isn't it?
cool cool cool. Yeah I don't know whats going through Carol's head and as much as I like her as a bass players it's not cool to go knocking someone like Jamerson who has by far had more of an impact on my bass playing then anyone ever. It's so funny I meet so many other bass players (mostly students) who don't know who Jamerson is and when I try to tell them come at me with "16th notes? you mean like wooten?" it's insane.
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