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JAZZ IS FREAKING HARD!!!!

Jazz is hard. I'm one month into my jazz studies. Jazz is hard.

Rock, Blues, R&B, all that made me think I was a fast learner. Jazz is hard. I'm a turtle when it comes to learning Jazz. Learning to walk a bass line PROPERLY is hard. It sounds easy, but Jazz is hard.

I can read a chart now, that's good, but Jazz is hard. So, I have trouble following it in time.

I'm getting better day by day, I just got done with an intense hour long practice session, but Jazz is hard, I wanted to smash my bass. I didn't, I just kept going. And I'll continue, but Jazz is hard and I needed to rant about it, because Jazz is hard.


Jazz is extremely difficult to play well if you have no formal training in your background. I spent several years studying it as an adult in both a classroom setting, in private instruction, and gave various quartets and big bands a try.

The groups I played with were fun and challenging, and I must have been doing something right because they kept asking me back. At the end of the day though I realized that it just wasn't a type of music that I would ever truly be able to play well and gave it up in order to focus on things I did play well.

The biggest challenges for me with jazz tended to be the latin stuff as well as soloing over more complex charts. If i had someone accompanying me while soloing, at least just playing a chord every once in awhile so I'd know where I was at I'd do ok, but without that I'd ended up in a train wreck.

I think this thread may have inspired me to pull out my real book and run through some charts this weekend.
 
I got a question for the panel...

I've never gotten too far in learning how to play walking basslines. All of the advice about chord tones and leading chromatic tones and such made it so that I couldn't think of anything else when I played walking basslines... I never let loose and had fun. I just focused on which chord tone I should hit next. This made my playing very boring as well - 98% of my notes were quarter notes, and it just felt very lackluster.

The thing is that when I listen to jazz, I can sing a wicked bassline that very much emphasizes the melody and encompasses different rhythms, yet when I pick up my bass I just got bogged with questions like, "should I hit the ascending 5th or the descending 5th?"

Is there a way to help me break free of this structured playing and playing what I hear in my head?

I know people will recommend singing a line and repeating it on the bass. I've done that before, but perhaps not enough... If I do this, should I do it as I'm listening to a tune and sing a few notes at a time and repeat it on the bass?

Another thing I'm curious about is that I have no idea what notes I'm signing, and whether they're in the key/chord or not... I just sing what jumps out at me. I'm wondering if I do the "hum/play on bass" thing against a tune, if it will help me determine if I'm signing notes in the key or not.

Any tips would be great, and not just on this "hum/play on bass" thing, but also just how to let loose when playing walking basslines, while playing harmonically.

I would suggest 2 things:

1) transcribe (on paper) bass lines from famous jazz bassists (Mingus, Haden, Chambers, Brown). I know transcription is such a demanding work, but you will learn a lot about harmony and phrasing, it is the most organic way to influence your playing.

2) "the modules" exercise: pick a walking note pattern (like 1, 2, 5, 3 ) and transpose it to each chord of a jazz tune. According to the current mode you'll have a 2, b2, 5, b5, and so on....
if you limit yourself to single strings or a specific string sets, you will also improve the fretboard knowledge.
 
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you have to memorize sounds.. this comes from hearing something over and over and over again.. that's why you play a scale over and over and over again.. and then play it in 3rds.. and then play it in 4th.. and so on..

tell me, can you sing right now the bass line to "under pressure" or "ice ice baby"? Notice they have have the same opening bass line..

can you sing the melody to "Somewhere over the rainbow"? if you can, you've now learned an octave and a major 7th sound..

can you hum your favorite Beatles song?

I have a funny feeling you wouldn't get lost if you had to solo over "Hotel California" or maybe "I'm a Believer"... assuming you know those songs because you've heard them 1000 times.. you know what will happen next.. the sound.. or maybe you know the bridge is coming up.. you've memorized the sound of the song..

even if you don't know the chord names.. you know the "sound" of things..

now imagine you do the same thing with jazz songs/ chords.. when you hear "My funny Valentine", You'll hear some sounds that you took the time to play over and over and over again and you would hear notes that you liked and didn't like..

now Rhythm is whole 'nother ballgame..



 
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It's just hard because I feel like I'm breaking the rules, or not going about it the right way.
I want to respond to this particular point because I think it's important to the issue that you're working on, and also because it resonates with me as something that has held me back.

I don't mean to be pedantic, but I really don't think that there are "rules" in music. I know it's a common expression to say, "learn the rules before you break them", but I really think that "rules" is limiting in this context. I know that there are many other players that are more than fine with wording it this way, but I find it to be really inhibiting. Talking about "rules" implies right/wrong notes, but I really prefer to think about it in terms of consonance and dissonance (or tension and release). I know this is more ambiguous and also more subjective, but it's an important distinction because thinking in terms of the consonance and dissonance encourages listening (and perhaps feel) and pulls us beyond a purely cerebral approach.

Having said that, I absolutely think that applying basic theory can help predict which combinations of notes are more likely to blend well with the overall chord structure and the other parts, so learning some basic approaches is of definite value. Knowing the chord/scale tones and using them to derive your bass line are a safer starting point than just randomly playing notes to see how they sound. It would be foolish to ignore the benefit of this kind of knowledge.

Ultimately, I am striving toward a point where the sound of the notes, the theory descriptions, the fingerings on the fretboard/fingerboard, the dots on the staff, and the way the notes I play relate to other players notes, all merge together in my mind to be just multiple ways of thinking about the same thing. I want to be clear on this, it's not an either/or distinction; It's really both/and, or if you prefer, all of the above.

Moving to something more practical, try to change your self-talk from thinking "that note was 'wrong'" to something more like "that sounded more dissonant than I was hoping for". Or instead of saying "yes, I got it 'right'", notice when "those notes sound really good together, in that context". Then attach the theory descriptions to the sounds with thoughts like "that chord tone led well into the next chord" or "that non-diatonic chromatic approach tone really emphasized that change in chords", etc.

-

As always, there are many approaches to playing. I'm just offering my response to your question. As Bruce Lee said, “Adapt what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is specifically your own.”
 
Oh yeah.... RULES,

I believe the singularity in music is DON'T MESS WITH THE ROOT.

...... all else is fair game. But for music to be acceptable to the Mesoeuropean Ear, the root and it's itervals are sacred ---otherwise what you get is noise dyslexia. Or progressive jazz.

Oh gawd.... am I ever gonna get ripped for saying that........can't help it though, it's true.
 
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It may be your opinion, but I don't believe any of those guys were above doing things to make money, and there's nothing wrong with it. They were great musicians and helped spawn a lot of rock music - they were entitled to their share of the pie. Regardless, there's nothing wrong with making money from your music. Even people like Bach, Mozart and Beethoven did most of their work by commission and worked hard to get official positions as conductors or court composers or to find patrons, etc. There's no requirement to stay poor and live in a hovel in order to make good music.



Really?







And no, I'm not going to get into a discussion about the definition of jazz. :rollno:

Enjoy the music.


I do enjoy the music. But FWIW I play all of those tunes regularly in my band plus I sub in a fantastic Allman Bros tribute band called the Peacheaters. I have a degree in Jazz Performance and bass from the University of Miami and BITD I played with legendary sax/trumpet player Ira Sullivan, BS&T and Buddy Rich. I have a steady jazz gig every Sunday in the summer and play it very regularly with a variety of other groups. I too don't want to define jazz. however, the videos you linked are NOT jazz.

whatever, I'm all done here...
 
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I do enjoy the music. But FWIW I play all of those tunes regularly in my band plus I sub in a fantastic Allman Bros tribute band called the Peacheaters. I have a degree in Jazz Performance and bass from the University of Miami and BITD I played with legendary sax/trumpet player Ira Sullivan, BS&T and Buddy Rich. I have a steady jazz gig every Sunday in the summer and play it very regularly with a variety of other groups. I too don't want to define jazz. however, the videos you linked are NOT jazz.

whatever, I'm all done here...

I've been playing jazz for a whopping 10 months at a weekly local, fairly high caliber, jazz jam night.

After 10 months of delving into the genre I'm also well versed in jazz enough to say, clearly, that those videos aren't jazz.

Form and composition method of all of those tunes, and even the band lineup itself are just not "jazz". I've yet to see a jazz band bio that reads anything like the Allmans did in 1970 or so.....
 
Knowing the chord/scale tones and using them to derive your bass line are a safer starting point than just randomly playing notes to see how they sound.

Moving to something more practical, try to change your self-talk from thinking "that note was 'wrong'" to something more like "that sounded more dissonant than I was hoping for". Or instead of saying "yes, I got it 'right'", notice when "those notes sound really good together, in that context".

? so in other words.. your still just closing your eyes and listening and it either sounds good or not? .. haha..
 
it's funny but it is different. The tunes have way more complicated road maps, first and second endings, codas.

and there are way more complex chords and a whole lot more changes than popular music.

then there's the active listener part, where you are expected to pick up on the piano player dropping half steps down with his left had, and then they turn around and nod at you to take a solo.

I was ready for anything until my first couple of jazz gigs. it is hard. the guys i started out with were old timers and they have been playing these tunes for 40-50 years, kinda like many of the TBers here playing Classic Rock. they knew the tunes forward and backward and would help me along with a wink and a wince.

yeah its hard but it gets easier. keep playing. after you get comfortable try playing a DB.

Solo, indeed... Had another musician nod at me twice, and proceeded to leave the stage. The drummer and I finished the song, to be informed at a later time, two nods is 'drop a deuce', one is 'sounds good', and three is 'I shouldn't have had the sushi!'.
 
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IMO the best fusion was done by rockers who could also play jazz - Allman Bros, Steely Dan etc - because they knew how to ROCK. The jazz guys who plugged in - not so much. (and IMO their motives were often nothing but 'strictly commercial'). One exception might be Weather Report, because of what Jaco brought to the table.


Dude, you gotta move on from the 70s... that was 45 years ago! What are you, like 80-years-old? :woot:
 

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