I've been in a few situations lately that have involved music that I consider "jazz based" rhythmically- show tunes and such. The classically trained players seem to have a quite different idea about how this music should be played. I've done a lot of orchestral playing but still consider myself a jazz player and tend to play this type of music from that rhythmic perspective. The classical people play in what I consider a very "corny" style but to them seems perfectly appropriate. The swing concept and groove are so artificial as to be nonexistent. Can the twain ever meet?
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Double Bass Jazz rhythm vs Orchestral rhythm
- Thread starter Bruce Calin
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I also find this very interesting. It seems that “Jazz rhythm” is about having a strong internal pulse, while “Classical Rhythm” is more reactionary. Adam Neely has a great youtube video on this topic:
A friend of mine, a wonderful jazz drummer who has lots of Broadway pit experience too is the guy the NY Phil calls for the odd piece that calls for a drum set player. He says it's impossible to find the beat; the different sections of the orchestra are not with each other at all in the way people playing Afro-american influenced styles are. When he first got the call he tried laying it down, but that was a disaster so he learned to just sort of float and provide the color they need with the faint suggestion of rhythm. I saw Champion at the Met this season and Jeff Watts was in the pit. When the orchestra was playing even he couldn't make it swing or even cohere. It's a great opera, BTW. The best new opera I've seen. Highly recommended if you get the chance.
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The main problem in the context I'm currently in is that there are singers involved who are feeling the time the way I conceive of it and it makes for a lack of cohesion to say the least. Trying to establish some sort of middle ground is exhausting. I understand better now why the old show conductors I played for would get so frustrated with string sections. You'd think it would be easy. It's toe tapping music for goodness sake.
This is why the Metropole orchestra is so amazing. They are the only orchestra I can think of that is able to shift seamlessly between both worlds. They actually can groove with a full symphony orchestra.
Good advice. I've been in this situation countless times but for some reason I've been more aware of it this time.
Classical music (particularly the baroque and classical periods) for sure grooves, and everything still needs to sync up to the same grid, but it’s definitely different than in jazz, folk, or pop music since the tempi can be much more fluid.
I think what can trip people up who haven’t played in an orchestra much but maybe do have experience in Broadway pits is due to the sound delay between the different parts of the orchestra: the back of the orchestra (brass, but also sometimes percussion) has to pretty much be right with or even a little ahead of the conductor because if they play at the exact same second as the first violins, to the audience they will sound late. Likewise, the strings will often play a little behind the conductor to compensate for the time delay. It’s just something you intuitively learn as you play in an orchestra more frequently. In a Broadway pit, it’s usually a smaller ensemble in a smaller physical space and everyone is mic’d or plugged in and running through the PA, so the sound the audience hears is largely not what’s happening on or below the stage, but what’s being pumped into the house. In that situation, everyone (the instrumentalists, conductor, and actors) needs to be on top of the beat because there’s basically no sound delay to deal with.
That being said, I do think in non-baroque contexts classical musicians are generally not taught how to “feel” music in the same way as jazz or pop musicians. I wouldn’t necessarily classify it as more reactive because if you see a chamber group play you can definitely see that they’re all very much feeling the same collective pulse, but it’s not the same as playing with a drummer and/or bassist and trying to line everything up with what they’re doing. What classical musicians do in small groups might be more cerebral than what groove musicians do, but I’m kinda just spitballing.
But also classical musicians are just not taught how to swing and when it comes up for us if our teacher isn’t familiar with jazz they’ll tell us to just play a 1/4 note triplet and an 1/8 note triplet without necessarily getting into how accents also create a swing feel. It also leaves out that a swing feel can range from almost straight 1/8 notes to a dotted 1/8 + 1/16 depending on the context and that thinking about it in strict metric terms kinda defeats the point.
I feel like I’m rambling, but I hope this can offer some enlightenment to people reading this thread.
I think what can trip people up who haven’t played in an orchestra much but maybe do have experience in Broadway pits is due to the sound delay between the different parts of the orchestra: the back of the orchestra (brass, but also sometimes percussion) has to pretty much be right with or even a little ahead of the conductor because if they play at the exact same second as the first violins, to the audience they will sound late. Likewise, the strings will often play a little behind the conductor to compensate for the time delay. It’s just something you intuitively learn as you play in an orchestra more frequently. In a Broadway pit, it’s usually a smaller ensemble in a smaller physical space and everyone is mic’d or plugged in and running through the PA, so the sound the audience hears is largely not what’s happening on or below the stage, but what’s being pumped into the house. In that situation, everyone (the instrumentalists, conductor, and actors) needs to be on top of the beat because there’s basically no sound delay to deal with.
That being said, I do think in non-baroque contexts classical musicians are generally not taught how to “feel” music in the same way as jazz or pop musicians. I wouldn’t necessarily classify it as more reactive because if you see a chamber group play you can definitely see that they’re all very much feeling the same collective pulse, but it’s not the same as playing with a drummer and/or bassist and trying to line everything up with what they’re doing. What classical musicians do in small groups might be more cerebral than what groove musicians do, but I’m kinda just spitballing.
But also classical musicians are just not taught how to swing and when it comes up for us if our teacher isn’t familiar with jazz they’ll tell us to just play a 1/4 note triplet and an 1/8 note triplet without necessarily getting into how accents also create a swing feel. It also leaves out that a swing feel can range from almost straight 1/8 notes to a dotted 1/8 + 1/16 depending on the context and that thinking about it in strict metric terms kinda defeats the point.
I feel like I’m rambling, but I hope this can offer some enlightenment to people reading this thread.
I think a lot of this could be explained by how little preparation orchestral musicians put into this type of concert.
Timely post as my orchestra is doing the standard classical/songbook concert in a few weeks. As a “crossover” cello and bass player I share the OP’s pain re swinging problems in orchestra (I’m on cello in this orchestra). “Corny” is the same word I use when most classical cats try to swing. Fortunately the bass section is strong and two of them really know how what swing is. Our principal cello is a classical guy but heard the problems. The conductor heard it too but he recommended we read a paper by Norwegians analyzing the swing beat (!). Kudos to the principal cello for calling a co-sectional with the basses where the excellent principal bass led the songbook rehearsal and helped us low strings get more with it. But heavens help the violins, lol. The violas were mia (sorry violas, had to do it 
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I think your comments about sound delay differences between combos and orchestra positions are right on and need be remembered.
I'm classically trained and over the years have played the odd freelance orchestra gig, but most of my professional experience has been in jazz. I taught at the college level for 20 years leading a jazz band. The times when I was playing in orchestras where rhythmic vitality was addressed I could count on one hand. I often got students who enrolled in my jazz ensemble whose training was entirely classical. When I asked them how often rhythm - not getting subdivisions right or whatever, but really playing in rhythm - came up in their training the answer was usually never. Another problem is conductors. I find the most incisive rhythm I hear in classical music is from chamber groups where they have to really feel the rhythm, instead of orchestras where they are supposed to follow the Great Leader performing their interpretive dance.
It really boils down to the fact that you can't intellectualize swing. You have to learn it by ear and imitating players you admire until you internalize it in your own way. Teaching swing as either being a tied eighth note triplet or a dotted eighth and sixteenth rhythm leads to the corny interpretations by classical players (no shame intended).
On a brighter note I'm playing on a production of Guys and Dolls for a local theater group and the musicians in the pit are great! Most have had lots of experience playing jazz, so the songs that do swing actually are played properly.
Also this is a bit of a tangent, but it's reminding me of a story from my undergrad that feels like it's important to the discussion. I was lucky to study the traditional music of the Ewe people of Ghana with a master dancer from there. Since it's all taught aurally, we'd learn the drum parts by copying him until we got it right. Anyways, he told us how once his family's music school in Ghana was contacted by a music school in Belgium that wanted to come and study at their music school in Ghana for a week. Eventually the Belgian school couldn't make the trip happened, but asked his family if they could send recordings of their music so they can learn it that way, which is a big no no for Ghanaians. His family held a meeting and decided that they would record, but not their music as they agreed that you can't learn Ewe music through a recording. They just improvised and sent that to the Belgian school instead. Sure enough a week later that Belgian school asked if they could set up a week long trip to actually study the music in Ghana.
On a brighter note I'm playing on a production of Guys and Dolls for a local theater group and the musicians in the pit are great! Most have had lots of experience playing jazz, so the songs that do swing actually are played properly.
Also this is a bit of a tangent, but it's reminding me of a story from my undergrad that feels like it's important to the discussion. I was lucky to study the traditional music of the Ewe people of Ghana with a master dancer from there. Since it's all taught aurally, we'd learn the drum parts by copying him until we got it right. Anyways, he told us how once his family's music school in Ghana was contacted by a music school in Belgium that wanted to come and study at their music school in Ghana for a week. Eventually the Belgian school couldn't make the trip happened, but asked his family if they could send recordings of their music so they can learn it that way, which is a big no no for Ghanaians. His family held a meeting and decided that they would record, but not their music as they agreed that you can't learn Ewe music through a recording. They just improvised and sent that to the Belgian school instead. Sure enough a week later that Belgian school asked if they could set up a week long trip to actually study the music in Ghana.
Another problem could be that classical players, in some amateur Orchestras, are reading and sight reading music and are often under-rehearsed. They are so busy counting, trying to get the notes, reading the music, watching for entries; that they are distracted and not listening to others and the overall sound as much as they should. In this aspect, the conductor may contribute to this issue, as this again encourages lack of focus on our own rhythm and feel of the beat.
We've done a few experiments, where the conductor did not beat, but got us to listen to each other, and amazingly this is often much better. But the under-rehearsal thing....
Not being a Jazzer, I would imagine such musicians rely a lot more on ear and memory, which leaves more space to pick up a groove!!
We've done a few experiments, where the conductor did not beat, but got us to listen to each other, and amazingly this is often much better. But the under-rehearsal thing....
Not being a Jazzer, I would imagine such musicians rely a lot more on ear and memory, which leaves more space to pick up a groove!!
Yes!! Much of the standard rep was originally done with no or minimal conducting by the concertmaster or soloist. My childhood was full of regular concerts by Chicago with Reiner conducting. His movements were so tiny most of the time - there must be video or film somewhere - that I think the orchestra really couldn't see his beat, so they had to feel it together and relied on him for cues and tempo changes. When he made a inches-long gesture, all hell broke loose. The results were fabulous. Great music making. IMO the rise of the superstar conductor has led to all sorts of problematic music making. The fanciful and fascinating movie Tar takes this pretty far out.
It’s a conflict, the real jazz feel and how a classical person in a symphony interprets it.
I recently played West Side Story. In ‘Cool’ the chart suggests ‘boppy’. But if I play the syncopated bass part boppy or jazz swing style the conductor and cello section will conflict with you. And they will consider you wrong.
They have zero clue on how to play jazz.
I recently played West Side Story. In ‘Cool’ the chart suggests ‘boppy’. But if I play the syncopated bass part boppy or jazz swing style the conductor and cello section will conflict with you. And they will consider you wrong.
They have zero clue on how to play jazz.
Adam Neely has a LOT of nerve trash talking Barry Lieberman.
I’m about to experience this in a couple of days.
New to concert band, and they have some numbers that scream for me to walk the changes, as opposed to following the music on the paper. I suspect the feel will be very odd as well.
New to concert band, and they have some numbers that scream for me to walk the changes, as opposed to following the music on the paper. I suspect the feel will be very odd as well.
