Yes, get ready
. This thread could potentially morph into a debate about the Charlie Parker with strings records.
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Double Bass Jazz rhythm vs Orchestral rhythm
- Thread starter Bruce Calin
- Start date
. This thread could potentially morph into a debate about the Charlie Parker with strings records.
Yes, get ready
I sort of want to ask whether I can just walk as I please, but I’m treating this as a learning and growth opportunity, so I’ll play by the rules.
Nope, the kids choir at Radio France and CRR Paris musicians (mostly teens) can easily play with jazzers, they need 2 directors though. At the very end of the video you can ear a young violin player doing a jazz solo... !
Now, that being said, I've played with classical musicians in an orchestra that was attempting to cover french pop songs of the 60's, 70's, 80's... total nightmare, the kids behind on percussions and drums were laughing most of the time and I couldn't help but understand their despair: when you have to play with old farts that have never done anything jazz or contemporay, it's... hard. Plus: the director was a classical trained trombonist, he could not understand why the rhytmic section at the back was playing "ahead" the rest of the orchestra. I told him it was quite simple "we see the first 2 measures you do with your hands, then it's ok for us, but the others who never played pop rock soul music have to see your hands ALL THE TIME, hence the delay that happens...", only 2 sax players understood what I was talking about... cos' they also played in jazz bands !
Moral of the story: the sooner you start mixing both cultures, as the french kids here, the easier it is.
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I played my show last night and decided I would be especially careful to feel the off beats. Since most of the feel is two-beat, more or less, this seemed to stabilize the pulse a little better. At least it helped me keep the groove in my own mind, since I have to ignore most of what is being played around me, including drums. I really don't enjoy playing this way, but it made it a little easier. I also want to tell the conductor this isn't opera, but probably won't. There is a little walking in this show, and I'm trying the same strategy. Good luck.
If you want to make a living playing music, this is the right attitude. You are right, he is wrong, you are a replaceable part, he is The Man.
I'll say that realistically, expecting a whole orchestra to perform hard swing in unison is probably not logistically possible unless it's a really specialized group. I kind of expect these types of arrangements to sound a bit more orchestral so to speak. In fact, and i could be wrong, i believe these concert programs featuring "standards" and "showtunes" are probably more so referencing the original composers intent which in most cases was not jazz whatsoever. But this is all me just ruminating, i have never played these types of shows, hah. I would be interested to see how the arrangements are notated and presented.
That's what I've done for many years. If he asks me, I'll try to give positive suggestions. If not, not.
A big part of the problem, I believe, is that there are vocalists involved who are trying to sing in a "jazzier" style accompanied by an ensemble that's playing like it's an opera and a bass player in the middle. A lot of these tunes do have a looser, more jazzy feel even if they are not jazz as such. It makes for a lack of stylistic cohesion that's frustrating to make comfortable. Quite a few of the Broadway shows that feature this style of music were written when a jazzier style was popular. I've been in situations like this before and why it's bothering me so much this time I don't know. I guess it's because the vocalists are having a harder time. My daughter is a professional singer and has mentioned how hard it can be when the accompaniment isn't making it.
Back in March, the community-college orchestra I play in performed a suite of Thomas A. Dorsey gospel tunes, orchestrated by me. One of them is a swing tune ... you can hear/see it here at 20:30. Throughout rehearsals I was worried that the orchestra would butcher the swing feel, but, considering the not-high average level of musicianship, it came off pretty well in performance. The recording doesn't capture our two-member bass section well, but we were walking four the whole time, and I think our confidence helped. Also helpful is that the conductor knows swing and was able to impart some of that knowledge to the players.
How interesting! I bet that was so awesome to study African tribal music in a setting as beautiful as Ghana.
One of the projects I'm involved in, a Django influenced band, has done a bunch of pops concerts with orchestras. My thoughts are that it all comes down to the conductor. A good pops conductor should understand swing 8th note feel and be able to articulate that to the orchestra. If the conductor doesn't have a good handle on it, things will be pretty lumpy for sure.
This is a big factor for sure. Another thing that helped in some situations I was in was having a concertmaster who happened to be a good jazz fiddler who could demonstrate for the group. This is unfortunately pretty rare.
Yeah, you wouldn't want to do anything like, say, listen to 20 hours of a mix of Basie, Ellington, and Cannonball Adderley, would you?
No, let's try to make this even MORE academic!
This "modified" sign was directly above the entrance to the pit at the Music Hall in Dallas (where they do musicals, and where the opera orchestra used to play).
No one knows who did this, or will confess to doing it themselves, but it is mostly appropriate.
No one knows who did this, or will confess to doing it themselves, but it is mostly appropriate.
I can confirm this is a thing as I sort of kept a toe in both worlds. It's not just about the interpretation of swing. IMHO, jazz musicians and classical musicians use significantly different mental processes and have different musical priorities.
I would say classical musicians are better at some things and jazz musicians are better at other things. In my experience classical players tend to have better tone and are better at phrasing, so they tend to excel at interpreting written lines. Jazzers are more focused on melodic improvisation.
IMHO neither is right and neither is wrong, at least not while people are are performing within their closed native musical environments. However, it's a problem when people try to cross over and force non-native views. IMHO...if you are going to work in both worlds, I suggest learning to fit in to both.
It's also a problem in environments where jazz and classical musicians tend to mix. I think you can usually tell which world is implied. If playing Bernstein, I would assume a classical interpretation.
Keep in mind, it's not like every jazz musician swings exactly the same way on every tune. So if you feel like correcting problems related to feel and rhythmic accuracy, there are plenty of opportunities on the jazz side.
In a pit, you gotta play in the style that supports the singers best. I like to push a harder jazz feel on some of these show tunes, because certain tunes have another life and history in the jazz world that might connect with the singer and audience better. But what supports the singer is king, and that usually ain't a bop.
In a pops orchestra context, forget about it, you ain't making the violins and violas swing, nobody ever has, nobody ever will. That can be weirdly challenging when the notes on the page are a walking bass line, but you gotta play it watching the concert master's bow for the time. In my college orchestra I was the resident "jazzer" who plugged into an amp and supported a lot of the pops stuff, and it was always a nightmare - an experience that scratches neither my jazz nor classical itch artistically, but a job that somebody's gotta do, because audiences apparently love it.
In a pops orchestra context, forget about it, you ain't making the violins and violas swing, nobody ever has, nobody ever will. That can be weirdly challenging when the notes on the page are a walking bass line, but you gotta play it watching the concert master's bow for the time. In my college orchestra I was the resident "jazzer" who plugged into an amp and supported a lot of the pops stuff, and it was always a nightmare - an experience that scratches neither my jazz nor classical itch artistically, but a job that somebody's gotta do, because audiences apparently love it.
Thanks everybody for the suggestions and perspectives. My show wrapped up over the weekend with everyone happy, so no harm no foul. I think my simply playing as rhythmically accurately with as much swing as seemed called for seemed to work okay. I followed and tried to "guide" the singers which gave them more confidence, I believe. I think that also allowed the conductor free up his conducting and not try to dictate tempo so much. Anyway, successful run, glad it's over.
