This might be in the wrong thread, but what are the thoughts on having a jazz teacher v.s. a classical teacher? I'm mainly a jazz bassist, and my teacher (who's a jazz musician) teaches me technique on the bass, excluding bowing. So I know it's important to be classically skilled, but what are the advantages/disadvantages?
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Double Bass Jazz teacher V.S. Classical Teacher?
- Thread starter NDBass
- Start date
I'd suggest learning to play with the bow. It's fundamental to understanding the bass. That being said, jazz is a whole different animal. I would try to do both. A good teacher will first teach you how to play the bass, then you'll learn about how to be good at jazz. You have to learn the basics of the instrument first, then start to incorporate jazz into your playing. Personally, I studied with a great teacher in Pittsburgh who was a wonderful jazz musician, but he taught me more about playing the bass--scales, technique, bowing, etc. Then in college when I majored in jazz I studied jazz in lessons (3 credits/semester) and also continued my classical lessons (1 credit/semester). I focused on jazz but the classical training helped me to be a good bass player and better reader. Now, I'm in my mid thirties, I want to go back for a classical degree. I can already play jazz but I'm not doing any (well, much) orchestral work. Classical would just make me more versatile, and my jazz playing would be better because of it. Learn to play the bass...then learn the music you're interested in. Don't be in a hurry. Just do it cause you love it.
See the thing is, I was originally classically trained, so my bowing skills are pretty good, and my jazz teacher is teaching me bass techniques along with jazz techniques.
Since you already are a player and have studied with the bow, and presumably have fundamental techniques down, learn all you can about jazz with your current teacher. When you are ready to study the bow again, get another teacher, or take lessons with both.
I think it's pretty difficult to manage both, but not impossible! The main difference between both is that in our collective memory, jazz and classical music are considered as "opposite".
In jazz, musician "is" the Music, he creates the music with more "freedom" than a classical player.
In classical music, the "text" is already existing you can't change it as your convenance -or disabilities-, but the singularity of interpretation pushes the musician to really questions himself to be able to play, to live and sing with his own voice a preexisting music.
I think that the instrument we play was initially designed for classical music, (not a scoop!) so the only true technique to sing the instrument comes from the great classical players who really thinked about the instrument for right and left hand (i mean complementary masters as Dragonetti, Bottesini,Petracchi, Rabbath, Rollez, Barbé...).
On the other side, great classical masters don't really sound jazz when they play pizz.
We have jazz masters (who have for almost of them studied classical technique) to learn how to groove and how to solo (Slam Stewart, Paul Chambers, NHOP, Scott Lafaro, Christian McBride...) in a real singing/soloist way.
The only way i've found to develop a good bowing technique in jazz was to study with a classical bow master, and being able to play classical soloist repertory -i was teached by the great Thierry Barbé, major from my promotion, i've really studied
-, and pick up all jazz songs and choruses you can on the other side. Trancribing jazz scales and modes with a bow is a key, it develop your precision and pitch to be accurate with and without a bow!
Listenning jazz violonists is also a key to have a good bowing phrasing.
I suggest you to begin with the Parker's Omnibook, playing pizz and bow, at differents octaves according to your current level.
And PLAY with all bands you can, tryng to incorporate the differents elements you're learning in both styles.
It's a life work but if you have method, it's possible!
Good music and good work to you!
In jazz, musician "is" the Music, he creates the music with more "freedom" than a classical player.
In classical music, the "text" is already existing you can't change it as your convenance -or disabilities-, but the singularity of interpretation pushes the musician to really questions himself to be able to play, to live and sing with his own voice a preexisting music.
I think that the instrument we play was initially designed for classical music, (not a scoop!) so the only true technique to sing the instrument comes from the great classical players who really thinked about the instrument for right and left hand (i mean complementary masters as Dragonetti, Bottesini,Petracchi, Rabbath, Rollez, Barbé...).
On the other side, great classical masters don't really sound jazz when they play pizz.
We have jazz masters (who have for almost of them studied classical technique) to learn how to groove and how to solo (Slam Stewart, Paul Chambers, NHOP, Scott Lafaro, Christian McBride...) in a real singing/soloist way.
The only way i've found to develop a good bowing technique in jazz was to study with a classical bow master, and being able to play classical soloist repertory -i was teached by the great Thierry Barbé, major from my promotion, i've really studied
-, and pick up all jazz songs and choruses you can on the other side. Trancribing jazz scales and modes with a bow is a key, it develop your precision and pitch to be accurate with and without a bow!Listenning jazz violonists is also a key to have a good bowing phrasing.
I suggest you to begin with the Parker's Omnibook, playing pizz and bow, at differents octaves according to your current level.
And PLAY with all bands you can, tryng to incorporate the differents elements you're learning in both styles.
It's a life work but if you have method, it's possible!
Good music and good work to you!
I took lessons with a classical player. Better instruction on the bow. Plus I already pretty much know theory and walking, etc...I didn't need instruction there, in fact I avoided theory arguments.
Since it says you live in NYC, you shouldn't have to choose. I studied with a couple "classical" teachers, but every single one of my teachers dealt with classical technique regardless of what they played.
A serious bass teacher will be able to get you through the basics of standard classical method.
In Brooklyn, there is no reason to study with a teacher who excludes arco.
I think it's pretty difficult to manage both, but not impossible! The main difference between both is that in our collective memory, jazz and classical music are considered as "opposite".
In jazz, musician "is" the Music, he creates the music with more "freedom" than a classical player.
In classical music, the "text" is already existing you can't change it as your convenance -or disabilities-, but the singularity of interpretation pushes the musician to really questions himself to be able to play, to live and sing with his own voice a preexisting music.
I think that the instrument we play *was initially designed for classical music, (not a scoop!) so the only true technique to sing the instrument comes from the great classical players who really thinked about the instrument for right and left hand.*(i mean complementary masters as Dragonetti, Bottesini,Petracchi, Rabbath, Rollez, Barbé...).
On the other side, great classical masters don't really sound jazz when they play pizz.
We have jazz masters (who have for almost of them studied classical technique) to learn how to groove and how to solo (Slam Stewart, Paul Chambers, NHOP, Scott Lafaro, Christian McBride...) in a real singing/soloist way.*
The only way i've found to develop a good bowing technique in jazz was to study with a classical bow master, and being able to play classical soloist repertory -i was teached by the great Thierry Barbé, major from my promotion, i've really studied
Listenning jazz violonists is also a key to have a good bowing phrasing.*
I suggest you to begin with the Parker's Omnibook, playing pizz and bow, at differents octaves according to your current level.*
And PLAY with all bands you can, tryng to incorporate the differents elements you're learning in both styles.
It's a life work but if you have method, it's possible!
Good music and good work to you!
Great advice in this thread- especially what Damon has to say- but if you don't mind, I'd like to offer another view of the notion that "jazz and classical are the opposite of each other"- I understand what you mean, that jazz is about playing what you feel in the moment, and that classical is about playing what is on the page as closely as you can to the way the composer imagined it- I dig that...
But I offer this: The Universal Mind Of Bill Evans - YouTube
The Universal Mind Of Bill Evans. Bill was one of many who were equally at home in each genre. Please listen to what he says about the difference between the two- it will make you think, and it may open some minds!
Respectfully,
Joe
Thanx Dc for this very constructive video. I totally agree with Bill's point of view, and the musical examples he uses are really meaning.
It's hard for me to explain what i wanted to say in english, but i was not saying that classical and jazz were musically opposite, on the contrary, i think they're additional. As a jazz player, i'm always referring to the classical tradition and love it.
I'm just talking about technical points linked to freedom musicality of the double bass in a jazz -bowing,singing- context.
Remark i've made about collective memory is not my point of view (music is music and i really enjoy to play every styles) but it's a reality for many musicians who separate these worlds (just in France?). They just play one kind of music.
There's another (technical) point: We play double bass
I mean, this instrument was initially designed to support others instruments in jazz music. Not to be a solo instrument. So, we just have a few examples of bow soloists who develloped a true jazz bowing vision, with sound constancy, pitch,phrasing and accuracy. And the melodic issue of the instrument evolved slower than the others. So our collective memory, our ears are less "printed". Many people (and double bass players) don't know Slam, or Garcia-Fons, in a different way. I think that hundred years of written tradition helps yourself to acquire fluency with the instrument, a large range of emotions, then you can retranscribe this technical ease sensation in jazz music to be able to say what you feel when you want. Until our global consciousness will be "printed" (things are evolving) ... I guess that violin, or any melodic improvising instrument followed the same way, then grew up from themselves.
Sorry for my english and good music to you,
Humbly,
Mathieu
It's hard for me to explain what i wanted to say in english, but i was not saying that classical and jazz were musically opposite, on the contrary, i think they're additional. As a jazz player, i'm always referring to the classical tradition and love it.
I'm just talking about technical points linked to freedom musicality of the double bass in a jazz -bowing,singing- context.
Remark i've made about collective memory is not my point of view (music is music and i really enjoy to play every styles) but it's a reality for many musicians who separate these worlds (just in France?). They just play one kind of music.
There's another (technical) point: We play double bass
I mean, this instrument was initially designed to support others instruments in jazz music. Not to be a solo instrument. So, we just have a few examples of bow soloists who develloped a true jazz bowing vision, with sound constancy, pitch,phrasing and accuracy. And the melodic issue of the instrument evolved slower than the others. So our collective memory, our ears are less "printed". Many people (and double bass players) don't know Slam, or Garcia-Fons, in a different way. I think that hundred years of written tradition helps yourself to acquire fluency with the instrument, a large range of emotions, then you can retranscribe this technical ease sensation in jazz music to be able to say what you feel when you want. Until our global consciousness will be "printed" (things are evolving) ... I guess that violin, or any melodic improvising instrument followed the same way, then grew up from themselves.
Sorry for my english and good music to you,
Humbly,
Mathieu
With the experiences I've had studying with jazz and classical teachers, the classical teachers that I've had really tend to focus on technique as a means to best approach the music. The jazz teachers focus largely on concepts within the music itself and it's up to the player to come up with the best approach.
I've never had a classical lesson with a non-bassist teacher, but I've had jazz lessons from teachers who play other instruments.
I've never had a classical lesson with a non-bassist teacher, but I've had jazz lessons from teachers who play other instruments.
Gentlemen... excellent discussion, with many good pointers. I'm a 30 year electric player, moving onward and upward with DB. I can read, I can hold my own with a jazz chart, and I have a very solid technique on electric. I know I'll be playing 99% pizz on DB, but I want to find a teacher who will guide me to the best possible fundamentals, whether that means a classical or jazz teacher.
The search begins this week. Thanks again for the advice.
The search begins this week. Thanks again for the advice.
- Dec 13, 1999
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Once again, I'd like to recommend Joe Solomon as a "best of both worlds". He's got a solid approach to improvisational concept from studying and working with both Lennie Tristano and Sal Mosca. I went from speaking fluent gibberish to being able to play with a modicum of meaning and intent. He also has a very solid approach to classical physical approach to both the instrument and bow from his graduate level work with Julius Levine and June Rothenburg.
Agreed, not only him, but the city HAS to be peppered with plenty of Joe Solomon students that would be a better fit than the teacher you have.
Jazz is music. Can be learned from anyone who knows how to make walking bass lines - so in essecense, you could take jazz lessons from an orgnaist á la Joey deFrancesco style, and be good, or from a guitarist, like I did. Heck that guitarist had a classical education!
Classical teachers often have a better all-round double-bass playing skills, from what I've seen, but here's the most interesting part: many good jazz players have a classical education, and many classical players play jazz for fun.
Of course, there are people who can't really do anything else than their original thing. I know of a bassist who, if asked how to play jazz on a double bass would answer something like "you pluck the strings, and take the notes that sounds good. Remember to make it groove" -"how do you do that" -"like this of course" *boing boing*
Classical teachers often have a better all-round double-bass playing skills, from what I've seen, but here's the most interesting part: many good jazz players have a classical education, and many classical players play jazz for fun.
Of course, there are people who can't really do anything else than their original thing. I know of a bassist who, if asked how to play jazz on a double bass would answer something like "you pluck the strings, and take the notes that sounds good. Remember to make it groove" -"how do you do that" -"like this of course" *boing boing*
Thanx Dc for this very constructive video. I totally agree with Bill's point of view, and the musical examples he uses are really meaning.
It's hard for me to explain what i wanted to say in english, but i was not saying that classical and jazz were musically opposite, on the contrary, i think they're additional. As a jazz player, i'm always referring to the classical tradition and love it.
I'm just talking about technical points linked to freedom musicality of the double bass in a jazz -bowing,singing- context.
Remark i've made about collective memory is not my point of view (music is music and i really enjoy to play every styles) but it's a reality for many musicians who separate these worlds (just in France?). They just play one kind of music.
There's another (technical) point: We play double bass
I mean, this instrument was initially designed to support others instruments in jazz music. Not to be a solo instrument. So, we just have a few examples of bow soloists who develloped a true jazz bowing vision, with sound constancy, pitch,phrasing and accuracy. And the melodic issue of the instrument evolved slower than the others. So our collective memory, our ears are less "printed". Many people (and double bass players) don't know Slam, or Garcia-Fons, in a different way. I think that hundred years of written tradition helps yourself to acquire fluency with the instrument, a large range of emotions, then you can retranscribe this technical ease sensation in jazz music to be able to say what you feel when you want. Until our global consciousness will be "printed" (things are evolving) ... I guess that violin, or any melodic improvising instrument followed the same way, then grew up from themselves.
Sorry for my english and good music to you,
Humbly,
Mathieu
Mathieu,
No need to apologize my friend! Your English is certainly better than my French!
I'm glad you liked the Bill Evans video! I feel a debt of gratitude to who ever posted it on Youtube! I had it on VHS tape many, many years ago- and loaned it out- but it never returned!
Now I can not only watch it when ever I choose, but I can "lend it out" as well, and needn't worry about losing it again!
Joe
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All my past jazz teachers started classical. I don't know any DB player who didn't get some or lot of classical training before switching to jazz.
Every classical lesson I've ever had (Linda McKnight, MSM) made me a better jazz player, because they taught me the most efficient way of playing notes, whether on paper or just what I was hearing inside my head. Yes, I studied with Michael Moore, but that was about an approach to music, not how to play the notes.
