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Jeez Mr. Berlin!

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#21
Kavorka said:
But I would argue that Billy Sheehan hasn't really learned. Admittedly, the man is awesome and kicks my butt on bass with his still in the case, but, I've read interviews where Billy says he doesn't know why he does the things he does, he's just learned the patterns over time from constant live playing since he was very young. As the owner of the Player's School, I would hope that Jeff Berlin wants us to learn more than that (though it has served Billy very well).

As for extended range, I read where Berlin said he likes his 4-string because its limitations in range force him to find creative ways to approach pieces. Being a huge Berlin fan, I don't take offense to his blunt interviews, I just found the Sheehan reference ironic.
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I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I recall a couple of Jeff Berlin interviews in which he stated that if you were going to play rock music, learning by ear was cool (I'm paraphrasing here).
 
#22
I believe that Jeff Berlin is egotistical, but that cockiness helped him to become one of the best electric bassists on Earth. He reminds me a bit of Anthony Jackson in that both have been willing to swim against the current when it comes to electric bass trends. Younger players also have to remember that Berlin and Jackson came of age when the electric bass was not respected as a real instrument. That attitude was really strong for bass guitarists who played jazz. The really strong emphasis on musical knowledge was necessary for these guys to prove their legitimacy. It is also important to remember that Berlin and Jackson have survived playing studio dates involving show tunes, jingles, jazz, classicals compositions, etc. They know that the market for musicians that only want to play their own thing is narrow and fickle. A musician who wants to pay the rent with his or her bass needs to be versatile.

Finally, I like Berlin and Jackson because they force players to look in the mirror and say,"Am I doing what I need to be a professional musician or am I a poser?" I, for one, said I am just a hobbyist by their standards and I have gone on to really enjoy the bass in that capacity. Others may have a harder time with the challenge Berlin and others lay down.
 
#23
I don't know-I'm not really opposed to tableture. I'm certainly opposed to Mr. Berlin saying that standard notation is the only way or you're ending your musical learning. Standard notation, like it or not, is just a translation. When you play a note, you don't hear a little ball with rod attached to it, and you don't hear the letters A or C#. You hear a sound. Same thing when you look down at your fingerboard-you don't see the A or C#-you see a block of wood and some metal. Notation was created to translate sound into a written form so it could be saved and others could play it. Tableture is just another kind of translation.

My one big gripe with it is the way it's written out. If they started creating tableture with the same note duration symbols and such that notation has, it would be much better. It's also a bit more limiting at first glance, as it seems to show you only one place to put your fingers, but when you read a piece of music, your hands tend to find one place to start as well. Notation has it's problems as well, such as it's unnatural relation to the fingerboard, while tableture can be played by almost anyone-that's why a lot of musicians can't read it. I see both as a guide to learn by, while Mr. Berlin's statement makes it sound like they are the music itself. "Tableture doesn't exist" is as credible a statement as "C# doesn't exist." Just because something has been around for a longer duration of time doesn't negate the existance of an alternative form of it.
 
#25
I think Berlin takes such a strong stance on this because he believes that tablature is a crutch that communicates too little musical information. Tablature has its own validity -- it's been around since troubadours played the lute -- but he's right about how limited tablature is. It doesn't tell you the rhythm, it doesn't tell you anything about the harmony, and it gives very limited info about melody. I never learned to read tablature, and I personally find it pretty useless -- it's not easy to read unless you've already heard the bassline and have it pretty close to memorized (by ear). Once you learn to read music, tablature starts looking like a diagram rather than music, which, when you come right down to it, is what it is.
 
#26
narud said:
this should be in his brochure for his school-

"learn music the right way and you too can be ignored by your peers, not get called for sessions, and have very few gigs...just like jeff himself"
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Of course, Jeff Berlin has toured with Yes, among other people. He learned the parts by ear. There are different types of virtuousity; Berlin may be rigid about his viewpoint, but he can back up what he says. I do get tired of these interviews in BP where some newly-discovered group's bassist mouths off about how he has no clue what he's doing, and doesn't recommend practicing, which he doesn't do. If that sort of attitude brought commercial success to everyone, I suppose it would be worth emulating. At least if you learn to play (and read) as well as Berlin, you'll know what you're doing -- and you will be called for gigs.
 
#27
I also don't think its Jeff's strong stand on education that cost him some gigs and session work. He's been pretty open that he had therapy to overcome some intense anger that resulted from his upbringing. He's also pretty open that this anger cost him a lot in his career.

I don't think he's angry when he advocates for education (and anti-tab). I think he's passionate. May not always agree with him but I respect his right to say it and surely have the utmost respect for his knowledge and incredible talent. I listen to his CDs regularly and learn something new everytime.
 
#28
matthewbrown said:
Of course, Jeff Berlin has toured with Yes, among other people. He learned the parts by ear. There are different types of virtuousity; Berlin may be rigid about his viewpoint, but he can back up what he says. I do get tired of these interviews in BP where some newly-discovered group's bassist mouths off about how he has no clue what he's doing, and doesn't recommend practicing, which he doesn't do. If that sort of attitude brought commercial success to everyone, I suppose it would be worth emulating. At least if you learn to play (and read) as well as Berlin, you'll know what you're doing -- and you will be called for gigs.
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jeff berlin never toured with yes. he played on _one_ gig with abwh.
 
#29
Dr. Cheese said:
.... He reminds me a bit of Anthony Jackson in that both have been willing to swim against the current when it comes to electric bass trends. Younger players also have to remember that Berlin and Jackson came of age when the electric bass was not respected as a real instrument. That attitude was really strong for bass guitarists who played jazz. The really strong emphasis on musical knowledge was necessary for these guys to prove their legitimacy....
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Wow, for someone with a name like "Dr. Cheese" that post speaks great truth and substance. Good post, Dr. Cheddar.

Unfortunately, Mr. Berlin and Mr. Jackson's 'attitudes' are, IMO, so far up the creek of cockiness and attitude, that I won't ever go out of my way to hear their recordings or performance. ;)
 
#30
Dr. Cheese said:
I believe that Jeff Berlin is egotistical, but that cockiness helped him to become one of the best electric bassists on Earth. He reminds me a bit of Anthony Jackson in that both have been willing to swim against the current when it comes to electric bass trends. Younger players also have to remember that Berlin and Jackson came of age when the electric bass was not respected as a real instrument. That attitude was really strong for bass guitarists who played jazz. The really strong emphasis on musical knowledge was necessary for these guys to prove their legitimacy. It is also important to remember that Berlin and Jackson have survived playing studio dates involving show tunes, jingles, jazz, classicals compositions, etc. They know that the market for musicians that only want to play their own thing is narrow and fickle. A musician who wants to pay the rent with his or her bass needs to be versatile.

Finally, I like Berlin and Jackson because they force players to look in the mirror and say,"Am I doing what I need to be a professional musician or am I a poser?" I, for one, said I am just a hobbyist by their standards and I have gone on to really enjoy the bass in that capacity. Others may have a harder time with the challenge Berlin and others lay down.
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the difference between jeff berlin and anthony jackson is people actually want to play with anthony. he also doesnt go around claiming the silly tidbit of being the finest electric bass soloist in the world.

go to allmusic and look at aj's credits and youll see he's done a wide range of sessions from steely dan,bette midler,chaka khan,paul simon,and the ojays to jazz guys like michel camillo,chick corea,george benson etc. the reason why aj is a master is because he gives the artist what the need without forcing himself on the music. go listen to the albums jeff berlin has made with other people and its that same style and tone regardless of the album.
 
#31
Narud, you've got a point about Anthony Jackson's much more extensive resume. Anthony Jackson is similar to Jeff Berlin in being opinionated but I never have had the impression that AJ is cocky. I don't know the ends and outs of the session scene but I'm sure personality would play a part in who gets calls.
 
#32
::Yawn:: You woke me up for this?

Who is this clown?

I dont care how great he plays, if anyone with that kind of attitude showed up to jam with me Id just turn off the lights and hide so he thought no one was home.

I havent used TAB in a very-very long time and actually encourage my friends to stop using it, but that doesnt mean you should go all ape-poop about it. Also, he reminds me of that kid from Fresno.
 
#33
i like jeff's playing,he came around in a era when having your own sound and style was a given in the circles he has worked in.and the point he is making about tab is true:in a real legit musical setting tab does not exist, i have had students ask me to "tab" somthing out for them to learn or ask me to help them thru tab to learn a song and i alway's tell them the same thing:no,if your serious about playing music you will learn how to not only transcribe but use your ear to do it,that how almost every really great musican has learned his/her craft.but i think the backlash if a part of the "i don't have to know what im doing movment"that's killing music these days. one of the thing's that i think contribute's to this is the fact that some of the richst/most well know musician's fall into this catagory and that is sad http://www.soundclick.com/willhoward
 
#35
willgroove2 said:
i like jeff's playing,he came around in a era when having your own sound and style was a given in the circles he has worked in.and the point he is making about tab is true:in a real legit musical setting tab does not exist, i have had students ask me to "tab" somthing out for them to learn or ask me to help them thru tab to learn a song and i alway's tell them the same thing:no,if your serious about playing music you will learn how to not only transcribe but use your ear to do it,that how almost every really great musican has learned his/her craft.but i think the backlash if a part of the "i don't have to know what im doing movment"that's killing music these days. one of the thing's that i think contribute's to this is the fact that some of the richst/most well know musician's fall into this catagory and that is sad http://www.soundclick.com/willhoward
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I disagree about tab "killing" music, great music is out there in every genre, but it some it has gotten hard to find.

For example rock music, the majority of what is played and presented in radio is the typical two bit nu-metal bands whose guitarist only plays power chords and never solos. The singers lyrics are the very generic "I hate my father/mother/life and I am so empty inside" crap. But even in a genre that all sounds the same, bands like Mudvayne stand out. Might not be your cup of tea, but you can respect every member of that bands abilities over the average numetal band.

Basically, the music industry is "killing" challenging/great popular music, in my opinion of course. Why try to produce something with a unique sound when the formulaic tuned down sound sells (still just speaking about rock here). The 60's-70's heyday, where most every band, no matter the genre, was extremely talented is gone, yet there are original bands who are insanely talented. You just have to look for them.

Here are some bands that are awesome, dont follow major trends, and should be checked out.

Clutch
The Mars Volta (love them or hate them, the music is original)
At the Drive In
Morphine
Atomship (not quite as groundbreaking for numetal as Mudvayne, the singer is decent, and music is pretty good (very little of the typical my-life-is-so-bad crap) and the drummer is very good.)
many many others.
 
#36
Jeff Berlin is entitled to his own opinions and entitled to express those opinions. A lot of players, teachers have their own system or have their own idea of what works. Some of that works for some students and doesn't work for others. I don't know why anyone would get bent out of shape over the use of tabs or whatever, because not everyone has the same objective with respect to where they want to go or be as a musician.

Having an opinion isn't a thing that going to cost you gigs, sessions or people wanting to play with you. I think the comparison of Jeff Berlin to Anthony Jackson is an interesting one. AJ has played with a lot of folks and is on a lot of tunes of various styles, can that be said of JB? If it can't be said of JB, the question becomes why? It could be by his own choosing, which is cool, but if it isn't there must be something else up with the man besides his opinions.

You can be the greatest player in the world(technically), but if you can't deliver what the music needs or what the musicians need, it just doesn't matter. If you're hard to work with, you won't work, that's just the way it works and a bad reputation haunts you damn near forever.
 
#37
I have a couple of problems with JB. First is that he really influenced my sound back in high school - the 80's. Second, If he would perhaps study rudimentary musicology he would find that tablature was one of the earliest forms of Western music notation - from the 6th Century. So, his statements are atleast on that front misinformed.

Methinks JB out to watch out for JB !
 
#38
So the problem with JB is that he's a jerk? And ignorant of musicology? And he really doesn't get many gigs in spite of his chops? Having met the man only once I can't say he's a jerk for sure (he was brusque, let's put it that way). He does overlook lute tab's temporal primacy. I'll take it on faith that he's not a big favorite for sessions if ya'll say he doesn't have the resume' of, say, AJ. What are we left with? The man's entitled to his opinion regardless of being an ignorant, underperforming jerk?

I still say that tablature is of limited usefulness and best avoided after you've learned the first 5 positions on your instrument!
 
#39
Saying "don't" in the field of music pedagogy is a mistake, IMO. Why limit yourself? If you can, learn to read tab, notation, charts, solfege, forwards and backwards. Learn fingerstyle, pickstyle, slap, tap, arco, fretted, fretless and everything else.

If you focus on one method to the exclusion of all others, that's bad. If Berlin's railing against that, then I agree with him. If he's saying that one can only become a complete musician by reading notation on a four string bass guitar, then I disagree vehemently.
 
#40
Interesting, these types of discussions always go beyond Jeff's personality to the actual substance of his statements. That's a good thing.

As for me, I never learned tab. Yup, you could put Tab in front of me and I wouldn't know what to do with it. Same with sheet music witha bass clef. No clue (well, to be honest, some clue here, I can read the rhythms enough to know the counts of the guitar chords above the notation).

However, I put something like this in front of me and start playing:

LOVE DIVINE
By Phil Keaggy

Am D
Never knew such a love
Gmaj7 Em
Could be found, it's so amazing
Am D
I can taste, I can feel
Gmaj7 Dm7
I can see for I am facing
G Cmaj7 Cm/A
Love Di-vine, you are mine
G Bm/F# E2
Let the world go walk on by
A6 A+
Here I'll stay, let it rain
Am7 D#dim7
Let it fall on me again
Am D
Human words can't describe
Gmaj7 Em
Can't define what's come upon me
Am D
I attempt to make sounds
Gmaj7 Dm7
But the whole thing's just beyond me
G Cmaj7 Cm/A
Love Di-vine, you are mine
G Bm/F# E2
You have found me just in time
A6 D7 G
You are my all in all, Love Divine
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And I can play along. And I know well enough when to use a minor third on a passing tone instead of the major third, where the 7/2/9/whatever is, etc. etc. etc. etc.

I learned to play by ear and by playing guitar a lot as well as bass, with piles of music books of Beatles, Who, and others with guitar chord charts on piano music. I also played a whole lot by ear.

I think I'm a pretty typical untaught/selftaught/honestly pretty friggin' musically ignorant rock and roll hack. I don't mind, that's all I ever want to be, it works for me.

I don't feel that I missed anything by never learning tab. I actually think that I'm better off as a musician because in my youth when I was learning, I spent 4 hours learning a part by ear as opposed to spending 20 minutes with a tab. I think learning by ear makes you more musical, and in that I agree with Jeff.

Sorry for rambling.
 
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