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Jeez Mr. Berlin!

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#61
I, too studied with Jeff- back in the 80s. He was giving private lessons out of the Bass Centre in L.A. One of the most facile bassists I have ever heard/known. Is he a jerk? Well, in a word...no! He's a great guy. I learned more from him in 4 hours than I did in 3 years teaching myself. He has a strong opinion that players of ANY instrument really NEED to learn standard notation. Yes, he does teach notation, and yes, he's really big on ear training. The first lesson I had with him, he gave me some "homework". He pulled out a cassette recorder, played about 7-8 phrases, and told me to take it home and transcribe them in all 12 keys. He also told me to get some trombone books and study their phrasing. Then he wrote out some stuff- 2-bar phrases, mostly, and told me to take these and learn them in all 12 keys. So, I did. It taught me about using both my eyes and my ears. I'm still a piss-poor sightreader, but give me a little while and I can work it out. Another thing he did was to have me turn away, then he'd play a random note, and ask me to identify it. I did pretty well there until he detuned his bass! It was a serious wake-up call to me. One of the best things he taught me was HOW to TEACH. As a result, I have been able to use my ears, staff paper, and some other supplies to actually teach my few students a thing or two, without feeling like a total moron. Even today, I am complimented by musicians and non-musicians alike about the way I make it look so easy, how smooth my lines sound, etc... thanks, Jeff!

FF to a couple years ago, on a Father's Day. Jeff played a clininc at Mars Music in Houston. I got there early and was noodling on a bass over in the corner. Jeff was soundchecking, when he was done, he came over and greeted me. "Did I give you that exercise?" he asked. "You sure did- and after 15+ years I can almost play it!" We hung out for a little bit and caught up on old times, laughed over some inside jokes, and then he excused himself to go change. He still remembered me, after many years. And he was right- many of the gigs I did over the years required reading abilities. I highly encourage anyone out there to go pick up a trombone solo book, and get to sheddin'! You'll be glad you did.

Peace
 
#62
I recentley read a interview with Jeff, where he basicly admits his attitude has cost him, it stems from some childhood issues.
I also know his son was very sick for a long time, I would cut him some slack. People always seem to find things they don't like about his playing, but I tell you.......he can solo over changes like a motherf&^er. When Bassplayer had him and Anthony Jackson, I always dug their articals, I didn't always agree......but that's what makes the world go round :cool:
 
#63
to be honest i wish he still participated here at talkbass. if only he didn't take to heart the negativity that his strong viewpoints earned him from some folks who couldn't help but feel threatened by his strong viewpoints - his participation here at this site was very helpful to a lot of folks in spite of the very few who gave him a hard time.
 
#64
After reading this thread, over the past few days I've been reading every interview I can find with Jeff Berlin as I'm interested to know his point of view. Now he speaks a lot of sense but this still troubles me:

Jeff, when talking about reading music: "Whatever you do, do not use a metronome. You don't need click time as you are trying to figure out where the F# minor triad is located on the neck and don't let anyone tell you otherwise."

Personally I'd find it very difficult to play without a metronome when reading things like syncopated lines. I've always been told to tap my foot and count and without a metronome that would be pretty hard.

Any views on this?
 
#65
I think his point was it's of no help to use a metronome when you have'nt learned the exercise or piece you are working on.If you are struggling to get the notes off the page,trying to do it in strict time makes it that much harder.Once you have the piece and recognition of the rhythmic figures firmly under your fingers,then the metronome becomes valuable.
He can be an abrasive guy,but it's hard to discount alot of what he espouses.It's musically sound.
The Tab comments get the most reaction because he's bang on,truth hurts sometimes.
 
#66
Jeff can come off as arrogant but I read it as confident instead, and I'm not offended by it. If he were to preface everything he says with IMO then I suppose it would be okay? I know that there are talented people on this site, most alot more talented than me but I believe Jeff has earned the right to state his opinion in pretty much any way he chooses. If what he is saying doesn't work for you, fine, no big deal, do your own thing your own way.
 
#67
KeithPas said:
Jeff can come off as arrogant but I read it as confident instead, and I'm not offended by it. If he were to preface everything he says with IMO then I suppose it would be okay? I know that there are talented people on this site, most alot more talented than me but I believe Jeff has earned the right to state his opinion in pretty much any way he chooses. If what he is saying doesn't work for you, fine, no big deal, do your own thing your own way.
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i dont think anyone really takes offense or is threatened by the things jeff says. imo, its more just pointing out what a jacka$$ he makes himself out to be. if his real concern was converting students to the proper ways of learning he could give his opinions and thoughts in a way that might actually attract a broader group of people to his school. those who i have seen go to the players school have all been pretty big jeff berlin fans/apologists. but, if he toned down he wouldnt be as talked about would he?

recently while doing a recording at a local college, the music director/engineer from the school said my playing reminded him of jeff berlin. i didnt take it as a compliment :eek: ;)
 
#68
narud said:
i dont think anyone really takes offense or is threatened by the things jeff says. imo, its more just pointing out what a jacka$$ he makes himself out to be. if his real concern was converting students to the proper ways of learning he could give his opinions and thoughts in a way that might actually attract a broader group of people to his school. those who i have seen go to the players school have all been pretty big jeff berlin fans/apologists. but, if he toned down he wouldnt be as talked about would he?

recently while doing a recording at a local college, the music director/engineer from the school said my playing reminded him of jeff berlin. i didnt take it as a compliment :eek: ;)
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I don't disagree at all with your post Narud. I would however take any comparison to Jeff Berlins playing as a compliment of the highest order IMO :bassist: .
 
#69
Jeff is one of the best technical bassists out there, you can't deny it, if you've heard Joe Frazier, his rendition of Dixie, countless other jaw-dropping bass stuff that he manages to use in a *musical* way instead of coming across as a total wank-head.

Jeff is VERY opinionated. I don't necessarily agree with everything he says, but what works for him works for him, no doubt about it. His approach may not be for everyone, which I think he needs to understand. But there are many, many, many positive things you can take away from him and his approach to *music*, not just bass.

Just look at his playing!! I truly believe he could play just about anything you put in front of him.

recently while doing a recording at a local college, the music director/engineer from the school said my playing reminded him of jeff berlin. i didnt take it as a compliment
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I most certainly would!! Cleanest execution I've heard.
 
#70
My opinion (and it's strictly an opinion) is that Jeff Berlin is on to something...he's radical, but it's his life. For me, music is a part of my life, but not my entire life.

Putting myself in his shoes (if I may be so bold), I can see his point about tabulature. Consider the fact that music is written in such a way that each note on a staff conveys not only the pitch of that note, but also the length of the note. It's meaning is far more universal than a mere number, that has no relative pitch value nor time value. Furthermore, a number has meaning on exactly one instrument, and forces the reader of that notation to use exactly the written notation. On the other hand, actual notes on a staff can be interpreted anywhere on the bass to achieve a different sound, or ON ANY OTHER INSTRUMENT!!!!

For these reasons, I honestly believe that standard notation is far superior to tabulature notation. It's a far richer way of conveying a musical idea than tabulature notation.

But, I digress...for those who are not all about pushing the envelope, stretching their minds to become the best MUSICIAN they can be, tabulature notation offers an easy way to recite a song.

Of course, there's a difference between being able to recite a song and being a musician, but that's another discussion.
 
#71
Well, there's no doubt that Jeff is a very talented bassist. I'm pretty good myself, and part of how I got that way was by wearing out a lot of Jeff's records (and Stanley's, and Jaco's, and etc). But, I have a problem with his approach to education. There's nothing worse than a teacher who's got religion about his craft. Being passionate is one thing, but being opinionated is entirely another. Just because the man is a good bass player, doesn't give him the right to go spouting off like he does. Frankly, most of the stuff he says makes him look like a real idiot, which he definitely is not. But it sure seems that way sometimes.

IMO the most important role of a teacher is to motivate his students. If you have a motivated student, they'll go off and learn "on their own", and you won't have to shove notation skills down their throats. I, for one, don't respond well to that kind of thing. And, I could care less what his opinion is about being a "professional" musician. There's a lot of fish in that particular sea, and I know a whole lot of very talented and very rich/famous/busy musicians who can't read a note. And tab was never "intended" to be a substitute for notation.

There's usually more than one way to get from point A to point B, and I don't need some egomaniac telling me that his is the only route. No wonder the guy doesn't get any work. If I "want" to learn notation, then I'll find an expert and learn it. But if I don't "need" it, why should I learn it? Jeff's "logic" makes no sense at all. The vast majority of the music in the world isn't "all that technical". I can't think (offhand) of anything I couldn't play without notation. Except maybe Offenback or something like that (or maybe Morton Subotnick). But I don't generally play that stuff, and I don't generally get called on to play that stuff either.

And as far as his comment about "I know music", well, lawdy dah. So do a gazillion other people in the world. And they don't have to spout off about it. The man clearly has some emotional issues. Yes I'd cut him some slack based on his difficulties in life, but that doesn't mean I'd tolerate that crap in any band I'm playing in. Anyone with an attitude like that would get tossed out of my band "real quick". He probably wouldn't even last through an entire rehearsal. :)
 
#72
nonsqtr said:
The man clearly has some emotional issues. Yes I'd cut him some slack based on his difficulties in life, but that doesn't mean I'd tolerate that crap in any band I'm playing in.
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he does seem to be unnecessarily aggressive and argumentative in a lot of interviews (eg. the interview in the bass heroes book)

I read his comments on going through therapy here http://www.innerviews.org/inner/berlin.html
"Once I got through the pain of discovery and throwing away my old beliefs and replacing them with healthy new ones, the sun started shining and it was a great day."

and here-
http://www.mikevisceglia.com/int082002.htm
"Therapy helped to put peace into my heart. I have peace in my life. I pray for it for everyone in the world. I really do. It's a bad thing to hold onto anger. "

-but I get the impression he tends towards (mis)using interviews, columns etc. as an opportunity to vent anger which should really be handled by his therapist.
the bit from the Bassically.net interview about people on the internet always being ready to oppose him but never in real life is totally unnecessary- it doesn't make him appear more credible- just more angry and easily riled.

regardless of whether his views are right or wrong, the sheer aggression conveyed by the way he presents them is offputting IMO.
it's interesting he mentions Billy Sheehan, as Billy has more of a "live & let live" attitude (at least in his videos)- eg. using 3 fingers as opposed to 2 works for him, "it seemed that way" etc.
but Billy Sheehan prefers a hard attack (and heavy strings) as opposed to Berlin's much-championed light touch + light strings......
 
#73
Right ok I've tried for a few days, when practicing sight reading, to not use a metronome and it's buggered up my rhtyhm. I'm working on my 'inner clock' but it's just so much easier to count along with a metronome. Gonna have to work hard on rhythm over the next fews to get me back.

Maybe it works for Mr Berlin but not for me, nor Joseph Patrick Moore.
 
#74
romac said:
Right ok I've tried for a few days, when practicing sight reading, to not use a metronome and it's buggered up my rhtyhm. I'm working on my 'inner clock' but it's just so much easier to count along with a metronome. Gonna have to work hard on rhythm over the next fews to get me back.

Maybe it works for Mr Berlin but not for me, nor Joseph Patrick Moore.
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Thats his point. You are too reliant on a metronome and need to work your way off it.
 
#75
Nick man said:
Thats his point. You are too reliant on a metronome and need to work your way off it.
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Yeah I know but it's just so damn confusing. You've got Ed Friedland publishing articles titled 'Metrone as Guru', you've people telling you that always use a metronome, then you've got Jeff Berlin telling you to 'lock it away in the attic'.

Who's a beginner to believe :crying:
 
#76
Believe the people who have what you want.

If work is what you want, believe the people who're working.

If you want to be a "bass player's bass player", believe whoever you think that is.

Me personally, I value my friendships, and I value the opportunity to get up on stage without having lots of genetically engineered vegetables tossed at my band. :)
 
#77
In the hallway at Jeff's Player's School of Music there is a picture of Rush signed by the guys. On it Geddy wrote something like "Listen to Jeff and do what he says"!

I think Jeff's point is that much of the industry is selling people on the wrong disciplines giving them the impression that tab and tapping will give them the skills to get work as a musician when he knows it simply isn't true.

I think people get ticked at Jeff because he doesn't tell them what they want to hear. He offers no "short cuts" or "secrets" just the facts.

As for the metronome argument I think many people are missing his point. Don't confuse having a device to keep a beat while you play with a device that is going to develop your internal time. BTW - Jeff proves the metronome argument in his lecture at the Player's School.

All the best,
Tim
 
#79
my point would be that not everyone is aspiring to be as accomplished a musician as Jeff Berlin... let's not forget music is supposed to be FUN to participate in (!), we call it 'playing' after all... and it should be a pastime available to not only serious musicians like everyone here :) , but also to people who don't necessarily want to spend hours and hours developing their ear, but just want to be able to whack out a few songs... and I don't see a problem with those kinds of people getting the shortcut that tab provides... it shows you where your fingers should go - and if you're happy with that and the associated limitations, great... it's not up to Jeff Berlin to tell you you're shouldn't really be allowed to do it.. Jeff himself acknowledged that the guy buying the magazine with the Steve Vai tab is more of a 'fan who owns a guitar' than a serious musician, so he should probably cut that kind of person some slack and let him get his gratification in peace :)

For anyone who aspires to be more than that, however, Jeff is correct...
 
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