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Jeez Mr. Berlin!
- Thread starter Bardolph
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Bryan R. Tyler said:
What he is saying at the beginning of the para. and is often quoted on, is that "proper" musicians only use their ears and/or standard notation and what annoys him and gets his goat, is that this tends to mean the bass guitar get taken as a "second-class" instrument .
So I remember reading an interview where he was saying how he was embarassed at music school, that all the bass guitar students were so lacking as musicians, compared to players/students of other instruments - so the thing is there is no Sax tab, Piano tab, Trumpet tab etc. Jeff Berlin's view is that this explains a lot!!
The point is that if you are going to be taken seriously by your peers - that is fellow musicians, you have to speak the same language as them - whether that's standard notation or chord charts, or playing well by ear ....
It's no good standing in the middle of a group with say - 3 horns, singer, piano and drums - OK I've got the Tabs for this! :scowl:
bassarch said:
Only to someone who wants to ignore the ramifications of what HE ACTUALLY SAID. For them I have no doubt it's as simple as "Jeff said it, it's true".
Simple!
If they don't, what's the point in including them in his statement?
Assume away. Jeff did not narrow his statement down. Not everyone "assumed" what he was saying nor should they have to. It's shouldn't be all that hard to just say what you mean. Sometimes that means going back and re-reading OBJECTIVELY. If he did and said what he said, his intent is pretty clear.
That's another assumption. Improve to what degree? Some guys would be content learning that lick Ryknow threw down right before the chorus of a Mudvayne song.
You DO NOT KNOW THAT!!
You don't. You can't. All you know of is your own experience.
I know lots of people who learned "P-O-T" from tabs. Are they worse musicians because of it... or ahead of where they were by LEARNING it?
Then how about not applying YOUR personal limitations to everyone else??
Unlike you, I've never used tabs and I never intend to.
The difference between you and I is that I can see the myriad of reasons why OTHER people play music AT ALL LEVELS and as such find a blanket condemnation pretty ignorant. Funny thing, I know people who can ONLY play by notation. Completely lost by ear. Does that make notation as evil as tab.
Notation DOES NOT MEAN YOU WILL LEARN MUSIC THEORY, any more than tabs means you won't.
Why do some of you repeatedly IGNORE the fact that for a large number of people who use tabs, LISTENING is a huge part of the process?
So.. when you used tabs you DIDN'T listen to the music?
Think that's the norm? I don't. Why would someone seek out tabs for a song they never heard and would never hear?
That would be deluding yourself... but I don't blame notation for that
Again... tabs equals NOT LISTENING?
Huh? Where do you guys come up with this stuff?
Or no spell check?
Now try that! write a little essay _at least one page long_ about anything in that way and have it read by someone else....I would like to hear that .Must be a pretty enjoyable experience
That's so weak I'll let it stand on it's own. LOL
Bryan R. Tyler
TalkBass: Usurping My Practice Time Since 2002
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Bruce Lindfield said:
"Tablature doesn't exist. It is a falsehood. It is a lie. It is the end of the development of a musician. Like this or not, it is a fact."
Come on, Bruce-it wasn't that hard to find.
Bruce Lindfield said:Yup - a whole load of them and they sure as hell didn't use Tabs!!
And they probably DIDN"T USE NOTATION EITHER.
Your point?
Bruce Lindfield said:
You're going to kick yourself for that one
So where does one go for "Interpretation of What Jeff Said 101"?
So I remember reading an interview where he was saying how he was embarassed at music school, that all the bass guitar students were so lacking as musicians, compared to players/students of other instruments - so the thing is there is no Sax tab, Piano tab, Trumpet tab etc. Jeff Berlin's view is that this explains a lot!!
To you maybe. How would you tab sax?
Peer pressure? LOL
Describe EVERY MUSICIAN'S PEER?
*crickets*
*toilet flushing*
and... scene.
If it's a group who DO NOT READ NOTATION... go ahead and whip out your sheet music. Duh.
damn, this is just way too easy.
Hogwash. Rubbish. Assumption upon assumption upon assumption.
romac said:
Yes, you did answer that part.
"That's why I said, "I say". Not "You say", not "A great musician is....". I just think to be a true great musician you need to be able to hear and depipher the language of music and to be able to read and interpret the language of music. To be a great linguist you need to be able to hear and decipher the language and you need to be able to read and interpret it. Same thing".
You're making it abundantly clear that in your opinion reading is not an option, it is MANDATORY to be considered a great musician by YOU. Got it.
Now check my post. I asked you a followup question. Don't just read the first sentence and decide to take that as the whole post.
It read:
"I asked what you mean by a great musician? For example, do you consider ANY Blues players great musicians?
There are a ton of other examples."
Well?
I insist you Brad to try that 'little weak sentence which you very kindly let stand on its own ' for real.And then come back to me again with that experience .
Because if you try you will see that 'that little weak sentence which you let stand on its own' WILL STAND CORRECTED .
Because if you try you will see that 'that little weak sentence which you let stand on its own' WILL STAND CORRECTED .
Brad Johnson said:BULL.
Language, like music, is first and foremost AURAL.
Now what?
EXACTLY'!!! thats my point...write some sentences with no commas no dots no ......etc et c etc ...and find someone to read it to you....and LISTEN how AURAL ıt ıs to your ears
Brad Johnson said:Yes, you did answer that part.
"That's why I said, "I say". Not "You say", not "A great musician is....". I just think to be a true great musician you need to be able to hear and depipher the language of music and to be able to read and interpret the language of music. To be a great linguist you need to be able to hear and decipher the language and you need to be able to read and interpret it. Same thing".
You're making it abundantly clear that in your opinion reading is not an option, it is MANDATORY to be considered a great musician by YOU. Got it.
Now check my post. I asked you a followup question. Don't just read the first sentence and decide to take that as the whole post.
It read:
"I asked what you mean by a great musician? For example, do you consider ANY Blues players great musicians?
There are a ton of other examples."
Well?
To be honest I know very little about blues music, it's not something I take a great interest in. I really can't answer your question because I only really know people like BB King.
I still think though that a great musician should not be limited by the fact that he or she can't read music. I believe that if a "musician" is handed a piece of music and he or she cannot read it, it is like someone who claims to be fluent in French but yet can't read it from a book.
bassarch said:
I don't use tabs. Missed that, huh?
*gerbils (really quiet ones, with little booties)*
*dead fish*
Never have, never will. I've never more than glanced at them... so I guess I won't be going on with them anytime soon.
Anyway...
You can have the best intentions in the world, as I'm sure Jeff does but if your delivery sucks and your intentions are muddied and/or obscured, what's the point?
Where's the "exchange" of ideas? You think it's wrong.
I don't.
Now what?
bassarch said:
Seriously, I think it's a very weak point at best. At best. All jokes aside I find it to be very weak. I guess being cognizant of oral traditions in music and storytelling figures into my stance and doesn't figure into yours at all.
As far as writing skill...
I read stuff here that obviously wasn't written with the best skill YET I STILL GET WHAT THEY"RE SAYING. And when I don't I ask for clarification. Heck, I understood what YOU wrote. Was that your point?
Here's my point... let's say Robert Johnson doesn't read music. A second year guitar major at Berklee transcribes his solos.
Which one is automatically the "better" musician? Which one gets the mandatory edge in "greatness"?
There is no automatic answer, is there?
Brad Johnson said:
Well that is exactly Jeff Berlin's point - that great Blues musicians used their ears - the main thrust of the actual quote (as opposed to Brian's 'mockery' of it!
) is that great musicians use their ears - end of story! I'm still waiting to hear of one - just one good musician who found that tabs improved their playing ...
Just one .. should be easy enough huh?
Brad Johnson said:
Who cares, as long as neither used Tabs, they're both doing alright!!??
Music's not a race or a competition - it's a win-win situation !!
I can like and appreciate hundreds and thousands of great musicians - never having to even think about "ranking" them - but I still know none of them used Tabs!!
I think tab-bashing is just another way for us serious 'real musicians' to look down those horrible 'rock' musicians 
it's especially fun, because tab's so linked with the guitar, that we get the add thrill of bashing guitarists by extension
However, I just can't get away from the nagging feeling that musical instructions on paper, however they're written, are not actually music... even though standard notation can express far more musical detail than tab, it's still only a recipe, not the meal... and i'm sure many great chefs cook great meals without sitting down having ever written or read a recipe in their lives... some of them may have spent their time working on cooking instead
it'd be absurd if people on an internet forum for chefs claimed that the only great chefs were those whose skills included writing and reading recipes - most people outside the confines of that narrow world would argue that the crucial thing is how his food tasted!
it's especially fun, because tab's so linked with the guitar, that we get the add thrill of bashing guitarists by extension
However, I just can't get away from the nagging feeling that musical instructions on paper, however they're written, are not actually music... even though standard notation can express far more musical detail than tab, it's still only a recipe, not the meal... and i'm sure many great chefs cook great meals without sitting down having ever written or read a recipe in their lives... some of them may have spent their time working on cooking instead
it'd be absurd if people on an internet forum for chefs claimed that the only great chefs were those whose skills included writing and reading recipes - most people outside the confines of that narrow world would argue that the crucial thing is how his food tasted!
Bruce Lindfield said:No - you are, when you realise that Brian just made that up and so has effectively made the debate even more of a waste of time than it was before!!
Bryan said "I disagree-I think it's pretty clear he is saying tableture is the end of musical development".
You said: "Where does he say that - pick a quote - it's just not there!!??"
Jeff said:
"Tablature doesn't exist in music. It is written for musicians who don't know the language of music that has existed for hundreds of years in standard notation. If someone can sit there and look at the numbers 15, 16, and 17 which will give them more of an immediate gratification rather than learning G, G#, and A, which way do you think they will choose? They'll choose the more immediate gratification. It's the fault of a lot of the magazines that promote tablature because they know that most of their readers don't know anything about music. Most of the readers of guitar magazines are fans which is fine, and they want to learn how Steve Vai did it. I say if you want to learn how Steve Vai did it, then toss a record on, put headphones on, and listen. That is how he did it. Billy Sheehan, one of the greatest rock bass players of all-time, he listened and he imitated. Tablature doesn't exist. It is a falsehood. It is a lie. It is the end of the development of a musician. Like this or not, it is a fact."
Wipe your shoes off, wouldn't want to muddy up the knickers.
Bryan R. Tyler
TalkBass: Usurping My Practice Time Since 2002
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Bruce Lindfield said:No - you are, when you realise that Brian just made that up and so has effectively made the debate even more of a waste of time than it was before!!
Excuse me, Bruce, but what's your problem? I quoted the last sentances in Jeff Berlin's quote. It's on the first page. I made nothing up, and I put no words into someone else's mouth. They are the words that came out of Mr. Berlin's mouth. There was no "mockery" of the quote-I actually quoted what he actually said. What's your problem with that?
And as you seemed to miss that, I'll also inform you that my name is spelled with a "y". You missed that too.
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