Jeez Mr. Berlin!

[Brad Johnson]

But that's not relevant to what Jeff Berlin is talking about - he's quite clearly talking about becoming a better musician - if you're not interested in becoming a better musician, then just ignore him!

Simple!

Sez you . I see it as very relevant


"Originally Posted by Jeff Berlin posted by Eskimo


"It's the fault of a lot of the magazines that promote tablature because they know that most of their readers don't know anything about music. Most of the readers of guitar magazines are fans which is fine, and they want to learn how Steve Vai did it. I say if you want to learn how Steve Vai did it, then toss a record on, put headphones on, and listen. That is how he did it. Billy Sheehan, one of the greatest rock bass players of all-time, he listened and he imitated".

This is his big point -

TRANSCRIBE, TRANSCRIBE, TRANSCRIBE !!

What the heck are you reading? The above quote is based on a gigantic assumption.

"Most of the readers of guitar magazines are fans which is fine, and they want to learn how Steve Vai did it".


I seriously doubt it. They want to learn WHAT Steve Vai did, not necessarily HOW. There's a major difference. Loads of players are perfectly content playing "Portrait of Tracy" note for note. They can find out the notes with tab and the recording. So where is TRANSCRIBE, TRANSCRIBE, TRANSCRIBE!! relevant for them?

It's not.

Every Jazz musician did this and every great rock musician - that is Jeff's point - even a bass player as different from him, as Billy Sheehan so obviously is - learnt his trade by listening and working it out.

And tab is a way to work things out.

BTW who gives a rat's hiney what every Jazz musician and every great rock musician did? Maybe you do but the guy who wants to hang out in his garage on a Wednesday night with his buds could probably care less.

This works as a way into any music - but no great musician ever developed by using Tabs - it just doesn't work!

You have absolutely no proof of that. It's probably fun to think that but you obviously don't have a clue... you'd have to be aware of EVERY great musician AND what paths they all took. Bottom line... you don't know.

Do you?

 

[Brad Johnson]

Differs ..one plays to get spiritually clean , one plays just for fun, one plays to get chicks , one plays to satisfy his/her ego , one plays to look cool, one plays to express him/herself , one plays .....etc...

why do you ask ?

Why do all of the people you described NEED to learn standard notation?

That's why I asked.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

NO NO - that's not what he's saying at all - that's exactly why he picks Billy Sheehan as an example - he's saying that you should be listening to the record and using your ear.

This is the big misunderstaning that leads to all these arguments getting blown up!
...

Berlins argument is not about Tabs vs, Notation - it is about Tabs vs Ear Training - which all the best musicians did a lot of - even those like Sheehan or Hendrix etc. who were self-taught.

I disagree-I think it's pretty clear he is saying tableture is the end of musical development. If he was saying what you're implying, his quotes would have been more like "Lack of ear training doesn't exist. It is a falsehood. It is a lie. It is the end of the development of a musician. Like this or not, it is a fact." He doesn't say this. He repeatedly points out tableture specifically.

So - great musicians always do a lot of ear training - tabs stops you doing ear training, so stops you becoming a great musician - that is his argument!

I'm just curious how tableture stops you from doing ear training and standard notation does not. I'm even more curious how Jeff would know that people who use tab have stopped their ear training-he must be a pretty omnipotent guy.

But if you give up trying to work out the line, and run to look for Tabs, then you are not improving as a musician, you are just wasting your time! Whereas, teh more trascription you do, the better you get - Tabs only makes you worse or at best stationary, in your music development.

So if you're trying to transcribe a song and you run to look at notation, then you are not improving as a musician, you are just wasting your time as well, right?

 

[romac]

I'm even more curious how Jeff would know that people who use tab have stopped their ear training-he must be a pretty omnipotent guy.

Generally if you use TAB your not going to transcribing songs are you? If your happy with TAB, why bother? So I think it's safe to say that the people who use TAB to learn songs, don't transcribe them. Yes they can do their interval training but by ear training I think Jeff Berlin was referring more to transcribing.

So if you're trying to transcribe a song and you run to look at notation, then you are not improving as a musician, you are just wasting your time as well, right?

I say half and half. I say to be a 'great musician' you need to be proficient in with both your ear and with reading notation, so my take on it is if you want to develop your ear then learn some songs by ear and if you want to develop your sight reading you can also learn some songs or 'pieces' by reading. I don't think you have to do either/or.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Basically my feelings on the matter boil down to this: People are going to play and make music, any way they want, using any learning methods they want, for the rest of time. They are not wrong to do so, and no one here nor anyone who claims to be "just about never wrong about these things" has any right to tell them they are wrong in their methods or that they are not learning. It's not a contest, no one's gonna win, and there is no one way to learn that is right for everyone. People here can claim tab is as bad as they want, but I know some guys who are using tab right now to play music that sounds good to them and to others while the anti-tab folks are typing on a computer.

This arguement always reminds me of the people who come on this board and say "if it has more than four strings, it's not a bass" as if they were saving the instrument from those too lazy to learn to play all their songs on a four-string. Like someone above told them they must save the instrument from the infidels. It's not anyone's business, and if it's something you're really concerned with and you think will ruin the future of music, please go hide in a bunker somewhere. Come out in fifty years. Guess what? Music will still be here. Tableture may not. Standard notation may not. It really doesn't matter if they are still here or not as they are both JUST GUIDES and musical growth can and will happen with or without their use.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Generally if you use TAB your not going to transcribing songs are you? If your happy with TAB, why bother? So I think it's safe to say that the people who use TAB to learn songs, don't transcribe them. Yes they can do their interval training but by ear training I think Jeff Berlin was referring more to transcribing.

Tab is just some numbers printed on a line though. I think the most important part of ear training comes out when you use tab-you still have to listen to the song repeatedly to learn the rhythm and melody of the song. A lot more ear training seems to be necessary to effectively use tabs than it would for standard notation, which includes several more indicators, so much so that many pieces can be played without even hearing the piece first.

I'm not saying that that's a good thing-I think that adding these elements to tableture would be very beneficial, making a hybrid of notation and tabs-but as far as ear training goes, you're more likely to need to listen to a song and train your ears with tab than you are with notation.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Generally if you use TAB your not going to transcribing songs are you? If your happy with TAB, why bother? So I think it's safe to say that the people who use TAB to learn songs, don't transcribe them. Yes they can do their interval training but by ear training I think Jeff Berlin was referring more to transcribing.



I say half and half. I say to be a 'great musician' you need to be proficient in with both your ear and with reading notation, so my take on it is if you want to develop your ear then learn some songs by ear and if you want to develop your sight reading you can also learn some songs or 'pieces' by reading. I don't think you have to do either/or.

Why do you need to be proficient with BOTH your ear AND notation to be a great musician?

Maybe you have a specific definition of great that fits this mindset?

 

[Brad Johnson]

Tab is just some numbers printed on a line though. I think the most important part of ear training comes out when you use tab-you still have to listen to the song repeatedly to learn the rhythm and melody of the song. A lot more ear training seems to be necessary to effectively use tabs than it would for standard notation, which includes several more indicators, so much so that many pieces can be played without even hearing the piece first.

I'm not saying that that's a good thing-I think that adding these elements to tableture would be very beneficial, making a hybrid of notation and tabs-but as far as ear training goes, you're more likely to need to listen to a song and train your ears with tab than you are with notation.

Very true.

 

[ConU]

Very true.

Very not true.

 

[Nick man]

A few guys are saying that if you use TAB you wont work on your ear and transcribe things which is total BS.

When I used TAB I used it for more than reading. If I came up with a cool riff, Id stop, open my notebook and write it down. If I was listening to a song I liked on the radio, Id pick up my bass and try to figure it out and TAB out everything I could right away so I wouldnt forget by the time the song is over. Whenever I downloaded a TAB from the internet the first thing I would do is sit down with my bass, my notebook, the TAB, and a CD player and Id listen to the song and check to see how accurate the TAB is by using it as a guide. Often it was pretty wrong so Id have to work with my ear and the TAB to transcribe it correctly.

Besides, how do you think those TABs were created in the first place?

 

[KeithPas]

Why do you need to be proficient with BOTH your ear AND notation to be a great musician?

Maybe you have a specific definition of great that fits this mindset?

Brad
I believe this depends on the goals of each musician. If someone wants to be a studio musician, or play in an orchestra or be a busy jazz player, then yes standard notation and big ears are pretty important. If someone wants to get together with friends and play music for fun or play in clubs then it is not as important. It does not make the reader more of a musician than the non reader.

 

[romac]

Why do you need to be proficient with BOTH your ear AND notation to be a great musician?

Maybe you have a specific definition of great that fits this mindset?

That's why I said, "I say". Not "You say", not "A great musician is....". I just think to be a true great musician you need to be able to hear and depipher the language of music and to be able to read and interpret the language of music. To be a great linguist you need to be able to hear and decipher the language and you need to be able to read and interpret it. Same thing.

 

[romac]

Tab is just some numbers printed on a line though. I think the most important part of ear training comes out when you use tab-you still have to listen to the song repeatedly to learn the rhythm and melody of the song. A lot more ear training seems to be necessary to effectively use tabs than it would for standard notation, which includes several more indicators, so much so that many pieces can be played without even hearing the piece first.

I'm not saying that that's a good thing-I think that adding these elements to tableture would be very beneficial, making a hybrid of notation and tabs-but as far as ear training goes, you're more likely to need to listen to a song and train your ears with tab than you are with notation.

Yes but your more liking to be improving your ear if you don't even use TABS at all.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Yes but your more liking to be improving your ear if you don't even use TABS at all.

I suppose you would be improving your ears the most by going completely by them and not using tabs or notation to aid you, or transcribing it into either and aurally memorizing each note and interval to a song, but in real-world terms, people often like to use something.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Brad
I believe this depends on the goals of each musician. If someone wants to be a studio musician, or play in an orchestra or be a busy jazz player, then yes standard notation and big ears are pretty important. If someone wants to get together with friends and play music for fun or play in clubs then it is not as important. It does not make the reader more of a musician than the non reader.

EXACTLY!! IT DEPENDS!!



So why try to apply these edicts to EVERYONE? That's my point. Jeff did not make the distinction, much the same as some in this thread. The person who wants to get together with friends and play music for fun or play in clubs could very well be a guitar magazine reader who wants to learn WHAT Steve Vai is doing. That's my point.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Very not true.

Did too.

 

[bassarch]

Why do all of the people you described NEED to learn standard notation?

That's why I asked.

But that's not relevant to what Jeff Berlin is talking about - he's quite clearly talking about becoming a better musician - if you're not interested in becoming a better musician, then just ignore him!

Simple!

The answer is given above by Bruce.I am pretty sure that thats the way Jeff berlin sees it also...At least thats the way ı saw it ..not all of those people need to learn reading music of course.But I assume that %90 of people here reading and following a forum like this with arguments for pages are the people who are trying to ımprove themselves who are trying to be better musicians....And my reply was to them Brad not to others.. I assume you and all the other guys here as all serious bass players who want to improve
We love our instruments till death and we practice and learn and study to be better all the time..But TABS!! dont do that..you will never be a better musician by using tabs
I myself used tabs from time to time..I dont hide it.But I found out that as long as I used them I never improved.Tabs are there , very easy to reach .Just one click ..and there you go..but you dont train your ear by that.
Then I decided to turn back to the old way.I put my headphones on and listened and listened and listened...And it takes time.But the prize is bigger the satisfaction is bigger.You will say I DID IT..what is more satisfying than that ?it gets sometimes so egoistical that you feel as if you wrote the bassline yourself...and besides all that weird phsychic stuff the most important thing is that your ear WILL BE TRAINED.

To me Tabs are like distorting a language and turning it into a bunch of words with no comas no fullstops no question marks no caps no adjectives no phonetics no grammer rules......
Now try that! write a little essay _at least one page long_ about anything in that way and have it read by someone else....I would like to hear that .Must be a pretty enjoyable experience

 

[Brad Johnson]

That's why I said, "I say". Not "You say", not "A great musician is....". I just think to be a true great musician you need to be able to hear and depipher the language of music and to be able to read and interpret the language of music. To be a great linguist you need to be able to hear and decipher the language and you need to be able to read and interpret it. Same thing.

This has nothing to do with what "I say" a great musician is... that's why I asked "you" for clarification. I'm not the one hanging on "great musician" as some sort of validation for what he said.



I asked what you mean by a great musician? For example, do you consider ANY Blues players great musicians?
There are a ton of other examples.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

You have absolutely no proof of that. It's probably fun to think that but you obviously don't have a clue... you'd have to be aware of EVERY great musician AND what paths they all took. Bottom line... you don't know.

Well - I have over 30 years of proof - of being a music fan and reading every magazine/paper I could, every week I could, reading every book on musicians and how they worked! Plus I have played in many bands, with hundreds and hundreds of musicians - I've talked to as many of the best musicians I've seen play as I could, had lessons etc. etc.

I have vast amounts of evidence in my whole life - and in all that time I have never met or heard of a good musician, saying they got better by using Tabs - now to me that's significant.....

Whereas, just about every good musician I've talked to has mentioned how transcription helped them get better....it's the story of my life and I can't deny it and there's no way you can either!!

Unless you want to tell me one...just one, good musician who says that Tabs helped them get better and that I can verify - until you can do that I'll stick with all my statements!!

 

[romac]

This has nothing to do with what "I say" a great musician is... that's why I asked "you" for clarification. I'm not the one hanging on "great musician" as some sort of validation for what he said.



I asked what you mean by a great musician? For example, do you consider ANY Blues players great musicians?
There are a ton of other examples.

Well check my post. I answered your question. Don't just read the first sentence and decide to take that as the whole post.