Jeez Mr. Berlin!

[Nick man]

Its one thing to be angry and opinionated for no reason, and another to be angry and opinionated in self defense.

 

[embellisher]

What I really thought was lame was that he deleted his complete forum here when he left (same with Dann Glenn).

+1!!!!!!!

 

[KeithPas]

Its one thing to be angry and opinionated for no reason, and another to be angry and opinionated in self defense.

This is a good example of different people seeing different things in Jeff's comments, I don't see how what he said was so offensive. I am not saying this because I am an apologist for Jeff, I like his playing and have a couple of CD's but it ends there. I simply don't see why it should get anyone that upset.
When you know you are right and you are confident in your points of view you don't need to be defensive. When all the talented people here (I am not being facitious) that are getting really upset and and angry about Jeff views have CD's out that I regularly woodshed on(for all I know they do!) then I will give their opinion as much weight as Jeffs.
As far as Jeff removing his Posts, since when are we entitled to his information? If he was the only person to have done this it would be one thing but it was not the only time it had happenend. There is a history on this site of Pro players coming around, getting flamed on then leaving with an extremely unfavorable view of this site. That is a shame because this is a very cool place.

 

[Dave Grossman]

As for the metronome argument I think many people are missing his point. Don't confuse having a device to keep a beat while you play with a device that is going to develop your internal time. BTW - Jeff proves the metronome argument in his lecture at the Player's School.

I refuted that argument at length (a few times) in Jeff's forum and he never replied to any of my posts.

I know for a fact that practicing with a metronome can help (at least some people) improve their internal time. It's easy enough to prove by recording someone attempting to play in time before they start using a metronome and comparing it with their timing after they've practiced with a metronome for a week or two. Though I haven't formally done this test, I do know for a fact that my time improved significantly when I started practicing with a metronome. Anybody who wants to know the answer to this question for themself can do the experiment.

I've heard of the mythical Jeff Berlin anti-metronome "proof". However, Jeff was apparently completely unwilling to give even an inkling of what that proof might be (it apparently can't be explained, only experienced, kinda like The Matrix, I guess). I doubt that it was because he wanted to force people to go to one of his clinics to find out. It was probably because it was a flawed proof that wouldn't stand up to the scrutiny that it would have been subjected to in his forum.

- Dave

 

[nonsqtr]

I think Jeff's point is that much of the industry is selling people on the wrong disciplines giving them the impression that tab and tapping will give them the skills to get work as a musician when he knows it simply isn't true.

The "wrong" disciplines? Since when did Jeff become the arbiter of what's "right"? I know plenty of people who've got work in the industry, who can't read notation "at all". And, as far as I can tell, Jeff's the one who doesn't get any work.

I think people get ticked at Jeff because he doesn't tell them what they want to hear. He offers no "short cuts" or "secrets" just the facts.

Facts? What facts? I don't see any "facts". Just a lot of opinion. And in my view, a lot of misinformation. Jeff's experience doesn't seem to dovetail with mine "at all".

As for the metronome argument I think many people are missing his point. Don't confuse having a device to keep a beat while you play with a device that is going to develop your internal time. BTW - Jeff proves the metronome argument in his lecture at the Player's School.

I've heard of the mythical Jeff Berlin anti-metronome "proof". However, Jeff was apparently completely unwilling to give even an inkling of what that proof might be (it apparently can't be explained, only experienced, kinda like The Matrix, I guess). I doubt that it was because he wanted to force people to go to one of his clinics to find out. It was probably because it was a flawed proof that wouldn't stand up to the scrutiny that it would have been subjected to in his forum.

Amen brother. The acid test of personal opinion is public scrutiny. Anyone who's not willing to public with their "proof" should be ignored. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. And, it seems, that's exactly what he did. And he took all his utensils with him.

 

[bassarch]

I started music by playing classic guitar by playing Tarrega,Villa lobos..etc.Then I started bass..So I learned to read music.Now Give me a piece of sheet music ..and I WILL PLAY IT ! WITHOUT LISTENING to a recorded version of it.

Now can you do it with tab ? ...??
So what _?.........the thing is very obvious.
İf you want to be a real! musician you MUST!(yes must, if you like it or not ) learn to read unless you are naturally gifted to hear the right notes in your mind ,only then you dont have to learn to read music ...Paco de Lucia for example comes to my mind
Tab is for people who wants to reach their aims without spending any effort and without suffering.And dont try to support your lazyness by saying do what works best for you ?....there is nothing ike that....if you do so ;it is just deceiving yourself

 

[JMX]

[..]
As far as Jeff removing his Posts, since when are we entitled to his information? If he was the only person to have done this it would be one thing but it was not the only time it had happenend. There is a history on this site of Pro players coming around, getting flamed on then leaving with an extremely unfavorable view of this site. That is a shame because this is a very cool place.

Well, the point is that he not only deleted his posts but also the posts of everybody else who participated in those threads.

 

[Dave Grossman]

Tab is for people who wants to reach their aims without spending any effort and without suffering.And dont try to support your lazyness by saying do what works best for you ?....there is nothing ike that....if you do so ;it is just deceiving yourself

Tab is useful for notating finger positioning in conjunction with standard staff notation. This can be done with standard notation but only in a cryptic and error-prone way which I haven't found to be very useful. All of my Bach arrangements are done in combination standard and tab staffs so I can easily document exactly where each note is played.

I have spent 10 years refining the finger positions of the 12 Bach solo works that I have primarily been studying (among others). Documenting these finger positions would be a nightmare without tablature. My first attempt at Bach was directly from the music but I found that if I put a piece down for a while, picking it up again and remembering where all my finger positions were was a problem. It's not just a matter of playing in positions where the notes are accessible. The tonality of the different string-fret positions is important when considering the intent and meaning of a phrase. Also, having certain notes all on one string can be important.

I think that everybody who is interested in printed music at all should learn to read music but tablature has it's place ... along-side standard notation. I don't think that people should rely solely on tablature though. It doesn't convey enough information on its own. Neither does standard notation. Together, they document exactly what notes should be played and their musical meaning ( that is, F# is distinct from Gb in standard notation but not in tablature ) and exactly where they should be played.

One thing I don't like though is some of the elitist attitudes I see from some people who are against any form of tablature. I think that a lot of this attitude comes from people who were forced at an early age to read music and probably hated every minute of it. Then comes along a form of written music that anybody can read and they feel slighted by it. That's the only thing I can think of that would explain their hostility towards tablature.

I agree that anybody who wishes to push their knowledge and understanding of music farther should learn to read music. However, there are many people out there who will never need to learn to read music to play the kind of music that they want to play. There are probably many successful bands out there where the musicians don't know how to read music. Who am I to judge them?

- Dave

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

İf you want to be a real! musician you MUST!(yes must, if you like it or not ) learn to read unless you are naturally gifted to hear the right notes in your mind ,only then you dont have to learn to read music ...Paco de Lucia for example comes to my mind

So Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder weren't "real" musicians because they couldn't read music, right? Or how about many of the original jazz and blues players who picked up playing and couldn't read period, let alone read music? Shouldn't you judge the musicality of someone by the music they make and not by their ability to read notation? Because notation isn't music, "if you like it or not."

 

[Dave Grossman]

As far as Jeff removing his Posts, since when are we entitled to his information? If he was the only person to have done this it would be one thing but it was not the only time it had happenend. There is a history on this site of Pro players coming around, getting flamed on then leaving with an extremely unfavorable view of this site. That is a shame because this is a very cool place.

Well, Jeff not only removed his posts but also my posts and the posts of everybody else. I put a lot of time and thought into my responses in his forum as did many other other people. To have our efforts thrown away because Jeff wanted to be a big baby about the whole thing is lame. He could have easily just deleted the flamewar thread that caused him to leave. If I remember correctly, the whole flamewar was caused by Jeff claiming that he was the first to have recorded (or invented?) slap-bass. Or something like that.

Before reading his forum, I was a big Jeff Berlin fan. I used to read his Guitar Player articles back in the 80's and he was partially an inspiration for me playing Bach. If I saw a recording that had him on it, I'd buy it. I think he's a great bass player and has a lot to teach. However, I lost respect for him after reading what he had to say about things that are important to me, namely, extended range basses, fretless basses, metronomes and tablature. I still like his music though. I just won't buy anything new just because he's on it.

- Dave

 

[Brad Johnson]

I started music by playing classic guitar by playing Tarrega,Villa lobos..etc.Then I started bass..So I learned to read music.Now Give me a piece of sheet music ..and I WILL PLAY IT ! WITHOUT LISTENING to a recorded version of it.

Now can you do it with tab ? ...??
So what _?.........the thing is very obvious.
İf you want to be a real! musician you MUST!(yes must, if you like it or not ) learn to read unless you are naturally gifted to hear the right notes in your mind ,only then you dont have to learn to read music ...Paco de Lucia for example comes to my mind
Tab is for people who wants to reach their aims without spending any effort and without suffering.And dont try to support your lazyness by saying do what works best for you ?....there is nothing ike that....if you do so ;it is just deceiving yourself

Nice rant. Simple question:

Why do people play music? By people I mean everyone.

TIA

 

[DigMe]

I Tab is for people who wants to reach their aims

Thanks for the tip, Golem.

brad cook

 

[Bassart1]

I enjoyed his columns (In GP then BP) when they focused on dispensing musical information and disliked them when they put the reader in the position of being a student who didn't practice their weekly lesson and now must receive the mandatory lecture and reprimand or the rather "played" analogies to boxing and piloting aircraft. (His later columns seldom were the former.)

That said I do believe he is often mis-quoted and misunderstood.

Just my .02

 

[KeithPas]

Well, Jeff not only removed his posts but also my posts and the posts of everybody else. I put a lot of time and thought into my responses in his forum as did many other other people. To have our efforts thrown away because Jeff wanted to be a big baby about the whole thing is lame. He could have easily just deleted the flamewar thread that caused him to leave. If I remember correctly, the whole flamewar was caused by Jeff claiming that he was the first to have recorded (or invented?) slap-bass. Or something like that.

Before reading his forum, I was a big Jeff Berlin fan. I used to read his Guitar Player articles back in the 80's and he was partially an inspiration for me playing Bach. If I saw a recording that had him on it, I'd buy it. I think he's a great bass player and has a lot to teach. However, I lost respect for him after reading what he had to say about things that are important to me, namely, extended range basses, fretless basses, metronomes and tablature. I still like his music though. I just won't buy anything new just because he's on it.

- Dave

I did not realize that everyones posts were deleted, that is lame. If he really made the claim that he invented slap bass that would be ironic because in many interviews he has really downplayed the style. It would be a stupid thing to say anyway.

 

[slugworth]

Nice rant. Simple question:

Why do people play music? By people I mean everyone.

TIA

>>> Excellent question Brad, and right on point. People
play music for all kinds of reasons. For themselves, for
others, for money, for religious purposes, spiritual purposes,
healing purposes, tribal rituals, etc, etc, etc. Nobody has
a monopoly on what is right or what is wrong; if one's motivation is right, then it is good. I can enjoy an Australian
Aborigine playing a digeridoo, a Peruvian Indian playing a pan
flute, a Symphony Orchestra, a Brazilian Escola De Samba drumline, Vietnamese folk music, or a Fusion band. It's all about the motivations, and when money becomes the common denominator, truth and integrity become distorted.
Money destroys art to a great extent. Back to the topic..
As I said in my earlier post; if you wanna be like Jeff, do
as Jeff says and does, but I don't think he'll guarantee
you ANYTHING.....IMHO, Jeff is one of the finest bassists
in the world today, possibly the finest; but I prefer Jaco's
work over Jeff's any day, because Jaco had things that
you don't acquire from books or lessons..He had heart, soul,
pain, torment, emotion, passion..Things that cannot be taught; the things that ultimately led to his self destruction,
like so many of history's great artists, poets, and philosophers... I'd better stop before I'm unable to extract my
foot from my mouth...

Slug

 

[bassarch]

So Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder weren't "real" musicians because they couldn't read music, right? Or how about many of the original jazz and blues players who picked up playing and couldn't read period, let alone read music? Shouldn't you judge the musicality of someone by the music they make and not by their ability to read notation? Because notation isn't music, "if you like it or not."

Where did I say that ?_?... .I totally respect Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder.They cant read music but they can hear the music in their mind ( Like paco de lucia I said , and there are many others )And they dont have to know music theory ....thats fine.
I completely agree with what you say.People should be judged by their music not the ability to read notation.
But for the average ear who cant hear the right note/pitch in his/her mind, he/she must learn to read music.Thats what I am trying to say.The problem is many (especially young ) players today want to learn everything with the minimum effort.And most of them are not very lucky with their ear either.Thats the problem I see...
İf you are lucky and gifted you dont have to read music.I have many friends like that and I totaly respect them.
But if you arent gifted enough to hear the music in your mind you must learn to read music ....thats what I am trying to say .

 

[bassarch]

Nice rant. Simple question:

Why do people play music? By people I mean everyone.

TIA

Differs ..one plays to get spiritually clean , one plays just for fun, one plays to get chicks , one plays to satisfy his/her ego , one plays to look cool, one plays to express him/herself , one plays .....etc...

why do you ask ?

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I don't know-I'm not really opposed to tableture. I'm certainly opposed to Mr. Berlin saying that standard notation is the only way or you're ending your musical learning.

NO NO - that's not what he's saying at all - that's exactly why he picks Billy Sheehan as an example - he's saying that you should be listening to the record and using your ear.

This is the big misunderstaning that leads to all these arguments getting blown up!

So the big point is that Tab is bad for you as it stops you developing your ear. So, the best thing you can do is to try to transcribe stuff and keep working at this, as it improves you as a musician, no end.

But if you give up trying to work out the line, and run to look for Tabs, then you are not improving as a musician, you are just wasting your time! Whereas, teh more trascription you do, the better you get - Tabs only makes you worse or at best stationary, in your music development.

Berlins argument is not about Tabs vs, Notation - it is about Tabs vs Ear Training - which all the best musicians did a lot of - even those like Sheehan or Hendrix etc. who were self-taught.

So - great musicians always do a lot of ear training - tabs stops you doing ear training, so stops you becoming a great musician - that is his argument!

Standard notation at least has the benefit of getting you thinking about music, using the same system as all other musicians, allows you to play music that has never been recorded etc . Tab has no redeeming features whatsoever, in terms of musical development.

But basically Berlin is saying ditch the Tabs and start transcribing - and never stop!!

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Nice rant. Simple question:

Why do people play music? By people I mean everyone.

TIA

But that's not relevant to what Jeff Berlin is talking about - he's quite clearly talking about becoming a better musician - if you're not interested in becoming a better musician, then just ignore him!

Simple!

"It's the fault of a lot of the magazines that promote tablature because they know that most of their readers don't know anything about music. Most of the readers of guitar magazines are fans which is fine, and they want to learn how Steve Vai did it. I say if you want to learn how Steve Vai did it, then toss a record on, put headphones on, and listen. That is how he did it. Billy Sheehan, one of the greatest rock bass players of all-time, he listened and he imitated.

This is his big point -

TRANSCRIBE, TRANSCRIBE, TRANSCRIBE !!


Every Jazz musician did this and every great rock musician - that is Jeff's point - even a bass player as different from him, as Billy Sheehan so obviously is - learnt his trade by listening and working it out.

This works as a way into any music - but no great musician ever developed by using Tabs - it just doesn't work!

 

[bassarch]

Cant be explained better than this ..totally agree with Bruce