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Jeff Berlin asks - What Is Taught Without Only Teaching the Facts!

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I've seen Jeff do this many times over the years, and every time he just creates confusion rather than clarity and frankly it's getting old. You can't talk to someone who 1. Thinks he's always right even though he hasn't clearly stated his opinion and 2. Deflects and gets defensive when even mildly challenged. His analogies are contradictory, and his examples cloud his message.
There’s no confusion whatsoever.
When I was “forced” by my Mom to start playing the accordion and was sent to musical school at age 5, there were no lessons “how to play by ear”, “how to groove (?), etc...
I had no say - zero say - like,
“My dear teacher, I want to learn how to play Astor Piazzolla’s tango compositions only.
I couldn’t tell my solfeggio teacher that I wanted to learn only some easy Schlager” songs.
Just imagine that my harmony teacher/s couldn’t figure out that C with a triangle sign.
I hope you got my message.
 
Well, I think he was pretty clear.

First point: every bass player is in some way self taught.

Second point: it is better to learn the theory studying music, etudes, musical content, than it is studying the theory isolated from the music, away from its purpose.

Third point: It is fundamental to learn how to read and where the notes are on the fretboard. Instead of trying to memorize it, it is better to learn it playing music.

Fourth point: the metronome, when used when you are learning the notes or some etude can get in the way of learning, because you can't slow down or stop to read better and find the notes on the fretboard. When you achieve this, when you know the songs or musical content, then you are able to step it up and play them full tempo.


I think he was very clear, and I think this is what he meant. And in fact, this is the way other instruments are taught.


And, to be honest, I think we all agree with each other. We are simply letting old grudges and old discussions get in the way of the conversation.
 
And many more don't, so your point isn't exactly rock solid. :)
what can i say... when jeff was with the players school there were dozens of videos on youtube where he showed chordal exercises. on the facebook page were "lessons of the day" with wonderful exercises written out as pdfs. everything for free. even now you can find a lot of stuff on the web, that is if you choose to look. if you prefer to troll here instead... your choice.
 
what can i say... when jeff was with the players school there were dozens of videos on youtube where he showed chordal exercises. on the facebook page were "lessons of the day" with wonderful exercises written out as pdfs. everything for free. even now you can find a lot of stuff on the web, that is if you choose to look. if you prefer to troll here instead... your choice.

Thank you for that hint!
I confess I never heard anything of him, before.
So, while I completely misunderstood this thread at first, it really reinforced the will to learn how to learn better.
I also like reading about other's educational background and experience. Makes this thread even more useful to me.
 
what can i say... when jeff was with the players school there were dozens of videos on youtube where he showed chordal exercises. on the facebook page were "lessons of the day" with wonderful exercises written out as pdfs. everything for free. even now you can find a lot of stuff on the web, that is if you choose to look. if you prefer to troll here instead... your choice.

Thanks! I don't have Facebook, but his page is open. Good tip!
 
When I quit reading this thread my life will improve significantly. Till then...

I think many of us here (myself included) are suffering from selective interpretation. We're pulling out the things we agree with, and disregarding the rest. If I had the time and the will, and this were a court of law :), I could quote lots of posts that would poke holes in everything you said in this post. I'll just highlight one that is particularly absurd to me instead.

Well, I think he was pretty clear...

Fourth point: the metronome, when used when you are learning the notes or some etude can get in the way of learning, because you can't slow down or stop to read better and find the notes on the fretboard. When you achieve this, when you know the songs or musical content, then you are able to step it up and play them full tempo.

I think he was very clear, and I think this is what he meant. And in fact, this is the way other instruments are taught.

First, if he were clear - this thread wouldn't be going the way it's going. What you said is clear, and I doubt that anyone would see any reason to argue. Seems to me less than 10 people on all of Talkbass are in agreement with him and actually understand what he's talking about. The title of this thread doesn't even make sense to me. A good teacher knows how to communicate well. But that has nothing to do with what I highlighted. I posted this last night, and then retreated realizing it was stupid and pointless of me to continue here, but now that I have my bkfast in front of me, and enjoy writing, I'll post what I deleted (thankfully it was auto-saved):

It is a myth of music to believe that one's internal sense of time is influenced by a box that clicks and neither speeds up nor slows down. Your experience might help to validate this for people. I hope so!

And I'm sucked in again... A METRONOME HAS HELPED MY TIMING, IMMENSELY. As well as lots and lots of other bass players and drummers I know. But I guess I must be BSing, because I can't think of any other reason that my experience doesn't equally validate the fact that metronomes CAN be helpful. Clearly, they're not, it's just a myth. The billions of people who have used them were all wasting their time.

Arrgh... I quoted a few other posts, but they got lost somehow. Someone else in the last couple of pages stated the same thing, that a metronome helped tune his inner clock, but according to Jeff, well... There must be something wrong with us.

OK. I'm not going to continue with where I originally planned to go with this. Hopefully I'm done here. I'll do my best to end with this...

strange that others seem to understand what he means....

Agreed. How many?
 
Well did anyone research his "facts" then to prove them as fallacies? Not too much from what I've read. I think my analogy is perfect, you response supports it more. Mr. Berlin "prefers bubblegum mouthwash" and is saying that this is his choice and is recommending it to everyone here. Not saying you all need to go out and get it, for it may not be your cup of tea, but simply saying that to him it's the best choice. Everyone "preferring mint" or another flavor have just spent there time arguing why one can't see that mint is a valid option too, when it's always been from the get go. Typically if one doesn't agree with a person, especially to the point that's been expressed by a population of TB members here these past few days, you typically use your "life skills" and don't get to involved with their views on a matter. Not berate them endlessly.

Edit: Constructive criticism isn't silly, but this has gone far beyond that in my opinion.

Because the "facts" should be presented, not expected to be dug up by the other person. What I have said is constructive criticism and haven't berated Jeff at all, I don't know him and haven't expressed anything personal, just professional (he's a hell of a player, got nothing against his ability in that department).

I think you're mistaking the way Jeff recommends things as a choice, the reason people get on his case is his communication style tends not to jive with most people.

He asked a question and received answers. Probably not the ones he and others liked.
 
2. There are only two ways to learn; a. being self taught and all that goes with it, and b. learning musical content based in harmony, melody, and rhythm.

first post

Incorrect and poorly communciated.

2. There are many ways to learn; the two I believe work best are a. being self taught and all that goes with it, and b. learning musical content based in harmony, melody, and rhythm.

Lot of grief and miscommunication can be avoided by simply editing.
 
When I quit reading this thread my life will improve significantly. Till then...

I think many of us here (myself included) are suffering from selective interpretation. We're pulling out the things we agree with, and disregarding the rest. If I had the time and the will, and this were a court of law :), I could quote lots of posts that would poke holes in everything you said in this post. I'll just highlight one that is particularly absurd to me instead.



First, if he were clear - this thread wouldn't be going the way it's going. What you said is clear, and I doubt that anyone would see any reason to argue. Seems to me less than 10 people on all of Talkbass are in agreement with him and actually understand what he's talking about. The title of this thread doesn't even make sense to me. A good teacher knows how to communicate well. But that has nothing to do with what I highlighted. I posted this last night, and then retreated realizing it was stupid and pointless of me to continue here, but now that I have my bkfast in front of me, and enjoy writing, I'll post what I deleted (thankfully it was auto-saved):



And I'm sucked in again... A METRONOME HAS HELPED MY TIMING, IMMENSELY. As well as lots and lots of other bass players and drummers I know. But I guess I must be BSing, because I can't think of any other reason that my experience doesn't equally validate the fact that metronomes CAN be helpful. Clearly, they're not, it's just a myth. The billions of people who have used them were all wasting their time.

Arrgh... I quoted a few other posts, but they got lost somehow. Someone else in the last couple of pages stated the same thing, that a metronome helped tune his inner clock, but according to Jeff, well... There must be something wrong with us.

OK. I'm not going to continue with where I originally planned to go with this. Hopefully I'm done here. I'll do my best to end with this...



Agreed. How many?

HI Joe,

First of all let me say that your posts (in this thread as in others like band management, etc.) are always coherent, full of logic and good sense and wisdom. I like reading you.

I just didn't understand if you agree with me or if the absurd comment you are referring to, is the one from me that you quoted.

I see a point and reason in what you explain, and if our opinions differ that's fine, but I don't think I said anything absurd. Just stated my own experience, since I had classical music instruction (piano and musical theory) from 5 to 17 years old and 3 years of bass lessons in a Jazz school and those (the later) didn't do much for me. But again, my personal experience, maybe I had a not so great teacher. He is a wonderful person and musician, though. Made my bass sing, which was problematic for me, because I realized it wasn't the bass, but the hands, ahah!
 
Because the "facts" should be presented, not expected to be dug up by the other person. What I have said is constructive criticism and haven't berated Jeff at all, I don't know him and haven't expressed anything personal, just professional (he's a hell of a player, got nothing against his ability in that department).

I think you're mistaking the way Jeff recommends things as a choice, the reason people get on his case is his communication style tends not to jive with most people.

He asked a question and received answers. Probably not the ones he and others liked.
I try my best not to use terms like "you" in a response when making a general statement as to not seem like I'm speaking directly to that person when I'm about to say such. Much of what I said there was a generalized statement to the crowd as a whole. I probably should have rephrased my last two statements as, "... one typically uses their "life skills" and doesn't get too involved with their views on a matter. Not berate them endlessly." As well as, "Edit: Constructive criticism isn't silly, but this has gone far beyond that in this thread in my opinion.".

And I guess that's where most are at ends here. I'm apt to still think he's giving everyone a choice. He's just saying his preferred method is better. A statement, while it might not be agreed with, is pretty open ended. Use whatever mouthwash you wish, to me, mine is better so I'll use that. I can only recommend you do the same.

As for your last statement, he asked, "What is taught without teaching the facts?" A question I tried to answer and maybe saw about three or four more answer. But most of what is being posted here is in direct reference to an unrelated thread he started nearly a week ago.
 
HI Joe,

First of all let me say that your posts (in this thread as in others like band management, etc.) are always coherent, full of logic and good sense and wisdom. I like reading you.

I just didn't understand if you agree with me or if the absurd comment you are referring to, is the one from me that you quoted.

I see a point and reason in what you explain, and if our opinions differ that's fine, but I don't think I said anything absurd. Just stated my own experience, since I had classical music instruction (piano and musical theory) from 5 to 17 years old and 3 years of bass lessons in a Jazz school and those didn't do much for me. But again, my personal experience, maybe I had a not so great teacher. He is a wonderful person and musician, though. Made my bass sing, which was problematic for me, because I realized it wasn't the bass, but the hands, ahah!

First, thanks. I appreciate the thought you put into that. I'm both agreeing and disagreeing :). I'm agreeing that some of his points make sense, but feel they have to be seen through certain colored glasses. On some other points he may say one thing in one post, and then another 2 minutes later. What you said about metronomes I can't see anybody having any problem with. The post I quoted from Jeff regarding metronomes is much different. It's simply not true, but he's convinced it is and labels things others have found helpful as myths. That would imply that we're makin stuff up here and have no clue what we're talking about. Only he does.

I realize too that it might seem I'm taking things personally here, but I guess that's just who I am. It's part defensiveness for me, but also for all the people who I feel might be hurt by misinformation. Jeff's word carries a lot of weight for obvious reasons. His playing skills don't however make him right about everything. I feel a certain sense of protectiveness. As I'm assuming he feels, I'd like to help anyone and everyone I possibly can to get as much enjoyment out of this instrument as they possibly can.
 
2. There are only two ways to learn; a. being self taught and all that goes with it, and b. learning musical content based in harmony, melody, and rhythm.

first post

Incorrect and poorly communciated.

2. There are many ways to learn; the two I believe work best are a. being self taught and all that goes with it, and b. learning musical content based in harmony, melody, and rhythm.

Lot of grief and miscommunication can be avoided by simply editing.
Why does he need to edit his opinions? Is it bad to state what he believes? To Mr. Berlin there are two ways to learn, that's it. What's left up to you is whether you agree or not, and to him either is fine. Once again, like anyone else, from his own experiences in life he'd recommend this view to others as an effective ideology.
 
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Why does he need to edit his opinions? Is it bad to state what he believes? To Mr. Berlin there are two ways to learn, that's it. What's left up to you is whether you agree or not, and to him either is fine. Once again, like anyone else, from his own experiences in life he'd recommend this view to others as an effective ideology.
Because if you think people shouldn't get on him, then yes he should edit his words to communicate better. You're editing as well, that's why I reposted his exact words, your underlined word wasn't part of what he said, it's what you interpreted as we all do with any information presented to us.
 
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Why does he need to edit his opinions? Is it bad to state what he believes? To Mr. Berlin there are two ways to learn, that's it. What's left up to you is whether you agree or not, and to him either is fine. Once again, like anyone else, from his own experiences in life he'd recommend this view to others as an effective ideology.
It has to do with communication skills. And it's so very simple...

Read these two sentences and notice the difference:

1. There are only two ways to learn; a. being self taught and all that goes with it, and b. learning musical content based in harmony, melody, and rhythm.

2. I believe there are only two ways to learn; a. being self taught and all that goes with it, and b. learning musical content based in harmony, melody, and rhythm.

That one word would save 25 pages of cyberspace and hurt feelings :). Not to mention wasted time. I could be washing dishes now!
 
Because if you think people shouldn't get on him, then yes he should edit his words to communicate better. You're editing as well, that's why I reposted his exact words, your underlined word wasn't part of what he said, it's what you interpreted as we all do with any information presented to us.
Not my opinions though, I stated in this exact thread I regularly edit to correct spelling and fix malformed sentences.

I'd like to quote the first post from hist last thread.

Hello to everyone interested in improving your bass playing. It gives me pleasure to share my thoughts about how to improve your playing if this is something that you seek to do.

I am rather different from other bass players that teach as I have been taught by the finest music teachers in the world since age five, right into my adult life. Plus, I researched for a long time how other instruments are taught and learned. From both my musical academic background and looking into teaching outside of the electric bass academic area , I arrived to the conclusion that most of what is being taught to bass players are flawed concepts. We can discuss these things for people to decide if they agree or not.

Edit: And to often add afterthoughts I feel would benefit my original post. This is clarified by the term "edit:", added at the end of many of my posts. (This example is kind of an irony :rolleyes:) (Also sorry if I pester the admins every time I do this! Didn't realize this until I read the earlier post by one of you guys. Will start to proofread a bit more and add try convey all my thoughts at the time of posting. :thumbsup: (I figured this may be better than spamming the board with new messages all the time! :laugh:))
 
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First, thanks. I appreciate the thought you put into that. I'm both agreeing and disagreeing :). I'm agreeing that some of his points make sense, but feel they have to be seen through certain colored glasses. On some other points he may say one thing in one post, and then another 2 minutes later. What you said about metronomes I can't see anybody having any problem with. The post I quoted from Jeff regarding metronomes is much different. It's simply not true, but he's convinced it is and labels things others have found helpful as myths. That would imply that we're makin stuff up here and have no clue what we're talking about. Only he does.

I realize too that it might seem I'm taking things personally here, but I guess that's just who I am. It's part defensiveness for me, but also for all the people who I feel might be hurt by misinformation. Jeff's word carries a lot of weight for obvious reasons. His playing skills don't however make him right about everything. I feel a certain sense of protectiveness. As I'm assuming he feels, I'd like to help anyone and everyone I possibly can to get as much enjoyment out of this instrument as they possibly can.


Ok, I see your point and I agree with you too.
 
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Not my opinions though, I stated in this exact thread I regularly edit to correct spelling and fix malformed sentences.

I'd like to quote the first post from hist last thread.
I more than understand that and acknowledge that, your editing wasn't in question, that thread was fine and stated well, this one not so much. take a deep breath. The man can defend himself or not. In the world we live in clear communication would make things so much easier.
 
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I think many of us here (myself included) are suffering from selective interpretation.
Yes.

Seems to me less than 10 people on all of Talkbass are in agreement with him and actually understand what he's talking about.

As a very staunch supporter of the Metronome, here are my memories from my personal experience of that "orthodox" (academic) music school.
Yes, there were old-fashioned metronomes on almost all pianos/fortepianos or on some shelves.
Their purpose was (sometimes) to indicate/approximate a composition's tempo like, Allegro moderato — moderately quick (112–124 bpm).
I have never ever played any composition on the accordion or on the piano with the Metronome.
The metronome was only to approximate - to round up - tempo.

For solfeggio lessons, my right hand was my Metronome.

A METRONOME HAS HELPED MY TIMING, IMMENSELY.

Once again.
During my music school years with those academic tormentors, I've never ever was asked, forced to play anything with the metronome.
I know what you mean by saying, "A metronome has Helped me tremendously", and here is why.
The classical academic musical education did not require any precise timing!
See Allegro moderato from 112BPM to 124BPM. It's such a big difference!

Here is what, I think, would have been done decades ago about those Metronomes.

Most probably, it would have been some kind of "after-school activity", or some "group of strange musical ideas" with a very strange name, "What is Groove and how to achieve it".

That would have been decades ago.
Now, most probably the Metronomes are required in some "fine musical institutions".

But what about that, "A metronome helped me tremendously?" statement.
When I was playing Schubert or Berlioz, or Haydn, or even Johann Strauss, my teachers required so much of OTHER things/nuances/attributes from my playing that drove me "nuts", but there was NOTHING said, required to play with the Metronome!
But even if you play some easy country music "Root-5th" pattern, you "must" lock with the drummer.
What???
It's never ever been mentioned in any academic education teaching tutorial.
Or maybe you were talking about some "after class" activity where some "strange" solfeggio teacher was "promoting some strange Groove ideas.

Let's take a "strange" example.
A college student is learning how to build a bridge with all those crazy formulas, calculations, etc...
That academic course manual, several required to read books, plus professor's notes have nothing to say about
"what kind of gloves/shoes/coats should the student wear while building a bridge in Alaska winter time".
That academic course does not require the student to know what kind of bullet protection to use while building a bridge in Afghanistan's Helmand province.
BUT IT SO IMPORTANT TO THE STUDENT!!!

In short.
With academic learning, the student does not dictate what the student wants to learn. It's given to the student.
In serious academic school, the student does not notate a chord as C- and does not use the Nashville chord notation system (but it's SO IMPORTANT for me).
When you told us that beautiful story about a very expensive bass guitar teacher in New York, to me it sounded like this:
"I don't care about any Cooking knowledge. I just wanted to know how much that Cooking Teacher is making or could make per hour", or "I promised my spouse to make Halva."

Should you have questions, please let me know.
 
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