Jeff Berlin asks - What Is Taught Without Only Teaching the Facts!

[JeffBerlin]

Thanks for posting that Bryan. After watching, I'm crystal clear what Jeff is talking about. Personally, I'm full of remorse for not getting that type of education. And a little peeved I allowed myself to make excuses (e.g. formal education kills creativity, etc.) Here I am at 51, and I feel it's too late. Maybe that's where some of the hostility comes from (well, that and ego)?

At any rate, this thread was timely, in that I had been watching videos and ran across one on chord substitution in Christmas songs. I printed out a chord chart and was playing with different chords under the melodies playing in a loop. Now I look at this video and see chord tones in action. Maybe it's not too late for me? I want to play some jazz before I die, and I think I have a little better idea how to go about that now.

More and more people are slowly catching on to the idea that there really is a better way to learn bass than is being offered. It isn't too late for you being over 50 either. You can be twice, maybe three times the player you are by the time you reach 52 if you learn correctly. This is a promise!

 

[Lesfunk]

Jeff, I personally am not unhappy with your views at all. In fact, I wish I had taken your advice 20 years ago. I would have become a much better player.
I have been unhappy in the past by the caustic way you had expressed them.
I've been following you for quite a while and have seen the great strides you've made in being more fair, reasonable, understanding and civil.
This does not go unnoticed.
I applaud you for this and congrats.
I've seen you perform several times in several different stylistic situations and I've never seen any player present a higher degree of skill.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Ultimately, practicing string crossings without using music to practice this technique doesn't work to improve your playing because no matter what song or piece of music you are going to play, you still have to first learn what the notes are and how to play them. Just crossing strings doesn't benefit one's playing because notes aren't involved in the technique. How can one be consistent if there aren't any notes to be consistent with.

I know you like sports analogies, so I’ll try one. You decide you want to be a professional boxer. The problem is you don’t know how to box yet. According to your idea there is no benefit to training your punches, blocks, counters, and footwork outside of actually boxing an opponent because you won’t know what movements and punches your opponent will make until you’re boxing them. I can’t think of a single fighter or trainer who would agree with this.

It can be consistent because the human body can be trained in motions and rhythms. Our bodies exist outside of the creation of music and everything we do to create music requires a physical action. The physical aspect of playing music is there whether you choose to focus on it or not- ignoring rather than integrating it just lengthens the time it will take to learn a process.

 

[Fun Size Nick]

Lots of bass players here give lessons. There's an option to post that information in our profiles if we want to.

That's true, though the CUP does as far as I can tell distinguish between players who give lessons and people who are operating larger educational business.

Be quite and stop talking nonsense, please! I never bring up my music courses because I am not here for this. When people ask me about them, I don't discuss them. I would appreciate it if you and other would stop making up silly conclusions and acting as if they are true.

Well, there's certainly a bit of that old fire there! I wasn't saying that you were directly promoting your courses. However, the disclosure system exists here because the knowledge of someone's music business interests affects the context in which their posts are read, whether you intend it to or not. Do you see how some of what you've said could be taken as disparaging your competition in general (not saying you've named any particular competitor)? Anyway, that's for the mods to enforce rather than me so I won't bang on about it.

On topic, I think that there's a lot of merit in the things that you say should be studied, but I don't see the sense in completely writing off elements of bass education that people here have explicitly said have been valuable to them and to others. But that's been said before plenty of times here so it doesn't seem like that's something that you want to engage with.

 

[bench]

He still hasn't clearly expressed what his views are, rather what they aren't, and what others shouldn't be doing, based on circular, and oftentimes incorrect examples and allegories. He's done this before, in Bass Player Magazine and gets defensive as a way of never being "wrong", when in fact he can't be wrong because his only point is everyone else is. Anyway, I'll not spend any more time on this thread, it's not very helpful to me.

1. get a teacher if possible, one that uses musical content for you to learn your instrument.
2. when regarding new material, don't use an external click. tap your foot.
3. don't spend your time with "non-musical" stuff like hand strengtheners or strictly physical exercises (e.g. string crossing exercises like up in tritones, down in major thirds...) because practicing musical content will involve string crossing eventually
4. practicing jazz is good cause jazz includes pretty much every harmonic and melodic concept you could ever cone across in a musical context

there's more but i hope you get the meaning...

 

[Michael Schreiber]

I know you like sports analogies, so I’ll try one. You decide you want to be a professional boxer. The problem is you don’t know how to box yet. According to your idea there is no benefit to training your punches, blocks, counters, and footwork outside of actually boxing an opponent because you won’t know what movements and punches your opponent will make until you’re boxing them. I can’t think of a single fighter or trainer who would agree with this.

It can be consistent because the human body can be trained in motions and rhythms. Our bodies exist outside of the creation of music and everything we do to create music requires a physical action. The physical aspect of playing music is there whether you choose to focus on it or not- ignoring rather than integrating it just lengthens the time it will take to learn a process.

Hm... is training outside of boxing an opponent per se out of context?
I thought the "wax & polish" example from Karate Kid *g* would be a more suitable example.
I remember my first Iaido (art of drawing a sword) lesson where we learned from the very beginning to see every move we learn within context. Sure, we did not have an actual opponent, but we imagined him, or the teacher stood in front of us, so we could visualize where the enemy stands, and where his muscles and sinews would be; where the direction of drawing our sword would be directed at.

About consistency; sounds like a valid point; similar to a Wing Tsun or ATK (anti terror kampf) student training his reflexes. Except that they need an external stimulus for that reflex - and consistent counter action in time. I doubt that one could do that by training to punch in time against a metronome. Isn't the stimulus totally different then; trimming the student to punch when the metronome ticks - then, standing baffled in a competition not reacting to his opponent's move because he is not used to that stimulus? At least, that was the first I learned in ATK in the army. Not claiming it would be "the truth" - in contrary. Just throwing it in for discussion.

Back to the bass, that would mean to me: Learning to fret chords cleanly, in my opinion, surely can be praticed without musical content. But to me it feels like a detour. I feel I learn much faster along musical content, since it provides (almost) the same stimuli as when playing live; the beat, the tempo, the mood, et cetera.

 

[Gianni "Orlandez" Orlati]

More and more people are slowly catching on to the idea that there really is a better way to learn bass than is being offered. It isn't too late for you being over 50 either. You can be twice, maybe three times the player you are by the time you reach 52 if you learn correctly. This is a promise!

At least I’ve got some hope

 

[Quinn Roberts]

A lot of stuff ... need to make a selection ...

One at a time my good sir, that should give you plenty of months worth of good work and practice to approach.
I'd recommend maybe working through a song a week in the real book while going through a theory book (if you so choose to do so). This way you'll at least be able to apply what you've read as soon as you've read it. It'll better stick this way.
Example: Read about a certain topic in a theory book (Tritone subs for example) and go play a song you're working on and try it out, or look for a song in the Real Book where you can identify this tool being used. Let's take the simple blues "Freddie Freeloader" for another example. In first four bars of Freddie there's only a single chord (Bb7). Well from I've just learned tritones can be applied to dominant seventh chords, so next time through the song I may play a progression like; Bb7/Bb7/Bb7/E7 (E7 being the tritone sub leading to the next chord in the song Eb7).
Hopefully this isn't too confusing!

 

[Quinn Roberts]

He still hasn't clearly expressed what his views are, rather what they aren't, and what others shouldn't be doing, based on circular, and oftentimes incorrect examples and allegories. He's done this before, in Bass Player Magazine and gets defensive as a way of never being "wrong", when in fact he can't be wrong because his only point is everyone else is. Anyway, I'll not spend any more time on this thread, it's not very helpful to me.

It's called research my friend!

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Be quite and stop talking nonsense, please! I never bring up my music courses because I am not here for this. When people ask me about them, I don't discuss them. I would appreciate it if you and other would stop making up silly conclusions and acting as if they are true.

Some people just ain't worth the time Mr. Berlin, I hate seeing someone of your stature constantly being drug down into these nonsensical skirmishes. There's some closed minded people in here (and I'm sure I'm one of 'em), but you certainly aren't one them.

 

[redstrand]

Some people just ain't worth the time Mr. Berlin, I hate seeing someone of your stature constantly being drug down into these nonsensical skirmishes. There's some closed minded people in here (and I'm sure I'm one of 'em), but you certainly aren't one them.

It's not a question of being drug down, it's just trying to get someone to substantiate their opinion, as a teacher, what he says flies in the face of how to teach. We're all entitled to our opinions and he has one, but it's just one. You stated that people should do research, in this case Jeff just could provide the information rather than people being asked to spend their time to prove or disprove someone's opinion. Again, the OP and some of the comments are trolling at times. Jeff has his way and that's great, but it isn't the only way. Judging by the comments by the mods and others he should get that point.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

It's not a question of being drug down, it's just trying to get someone to substantiate their opinion, as a teacher, what he says flies in the face of how to teach. We're all entitled to our opinions and he has one, but it's just one. You stated that people should do research, in this case Jeff just could provide the information rather than people being asked to spend their time to prove or disprove someone's opinion. Again, the OP and some of the comments are trolling at times. Jeff has his way and that's great, but it isn't the only way. Judging by the comments by the mods and others he should get that point.

How many posts of Jeff's have you read? I think he's provided more than enough information for us in just the first post of hist last thread. He's repeated that he agree's his way isn't the only way as well.. If I tell you to get the bubblegum flavor mouthwash because it's better than the mint am I being condescending to mint mouthwash fans? This is starting to get silly people...

 

[redstrand]

How many posts of Jeff's have you read? I think he's provided more than enough information for us in just the first post of hist last thread. He's repeated that he agree's his way isn't the only way as well.. If I tell you to get the bubblegum flavor mouthwash because it's better than the mint am I being condescending to mint mouthwash fans? This is starting to get silly people...

Ugh, you're missing the point. He did not provide information. He stated something and then in later posts stated something about musical facts without elaborating. Again. what I pointed out is that he was a view and that's fine. It's that a lot of us are saying that telling us we're wrong and doing the wrong thing towards learning is in and of itself incorrect. Your analogy could use some work, this isn't about comparing flavors, that's irrelevant, learning styles like your fingerprints are unique. Each person thrives in different ways, I have years of experience with this and specialize in it minute after minute, day after day. My room has students who are worlds apart in their abilities, if I treated them or used the method that Jeff points out, nothing would ever get done. Every one learns differently, everyone has different capabilities and skills, once that is acknowledged and applied, students have a better chance to learn. Starting out with saying a metronome is useless is just trolling, my timing was awful, used a metronome for a month and I'm good to go. It's a tool, it came in handy and I would highly suggest people use one to help with timing, tapping your foot doesn't work if you can't keep time to begin with.

Criticism isn't silly, it can be constructive. It's just that folks on the internet don't always have the life skills to use the criticism constructively.

 

[natobasso]

Sure, valid points, but why doesn't HE say these things? Every time I ask him to state his point clearly, he doesn't do it. Everytime he does this, and he's done this many times over the years, the same thing happens - lots of confusion around what he's saying which he takes as criticism. *Yawn*.

 

[natobasso]

I've seen Jeff do this many times over the years, and every time he just creates confusion rather than clarity and frankly it's getting old. You can't talk to someone who 1. Thinks he's always right even though he hasn't clearly stated his opinion and 2. Deflects and gets defensive when even mildly challenged. His analogies are contradictory, and his examples cloud his message.

 

[bench]

Sure, valid points, but why doesn't HE say these things? Every time I ask him to state his point clearly, he doesn't do it. Everytime he does this, and he's done this many times over the years, the same thing happens - lots of confusion around what he's saying which he takes as criticism. *Yawn*.

strange that others seem to understand what he means....

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Ugh, you're missing the point. He did not provide information. He stated something and then in later posts stated something about musical facts without elaborating. Again. what I pointed out is that he was a view and that's fine. It's that a lot of us are saying that telling us we're wrong and doing the wrong thing towards learning is in and of itself incorrect. Your analogy could use some work, this isn't about comparing flavors, that's irrelevant, learning styles like your fingerprints are unique. Each person thrives in different ways, I have years of experience with this and specialize in it minute after minute, day after day. My room has students who are worlds apart in their abilities, if I treated them or used the method that Jeff points out, nothing would ever get done. Every one learns differently, everyone has different capabilities and skills, once that is acknowledged and applied, students have a better chance to learn. Starting out with saying a metronome is useless is just trolling, my timing was awful, used a metronome for a month and I'm good to go. It's a tool, it came in handy and I would highly suggest people use one to help with timing, tapping your foot doesn't work if you can't keep time to begin with.

Criticism isn't silly, it can be constructive. It's just that folks on the internet don't always have the life skills to use the criticism constructively.

Well did anyone research his "facts" then to prove them as fallacies? Not too much from what I've read. I think my analogy is perfect, you response supports it more. Mr. Berlin "prefers bubblegum mouthwash" and is saying that this is his choice and is recommending it to everyone here. Not saying you all need to go out and get it, for it may not be your cup of tea, but simply saying that to him it's the best choice. Everyone "preferring mint" or another flavor have just spent there time arguing why one can't see that mint is a valid option too, when it's always been from the get go. Typically if one doesn't agree with a person, especially to the point that's been expressed by a population of TB members here these past few days, you typically use your "life skills" and don't get to involved with their views on a matter. Not berate them endlessly.

Edit: Constructive criticism isn't silly, but this has gone far beyond that in my opinion.

 

[natobasso]

And many more don't, so your point isn't exactly rock solid.

 

[gln1955]

That's true, though the CUP does as far as I can tell distinguish between players who give lessons and people who are operating larger educational business.


Well, there's certainly a bit of that old fire there! I wasn't saying that you were directly promoting your courses. However, the disclosure system exists here because the knowledge of someone's music business interests affects the context in which their posts are read, whether you intend it to or not. Do you see how some of what you've said could be taken as disparaging your competition in general (not saying you've named any particular competitor)? Anyway, that's for the mods to enforce rather than me so I won't bang on about it.

Yeah, I've been waiting to hear from the mods how Mr. Berlin is exempt from the TB rules.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

I'm posting these in a hopes that hearing Mr. Berlin speak his own thoughts may help better clarify his position.