Jeff Berlin asks - What Is Taught Without Only Teaching the Facts!

[Quinn Roberts]

Well, if you wanted me to play Cmaj7 chord tones up and down the neck, but I could only fret with one finger, we'd have a problem! There must be a minimal amount of technique that is required for proficiency on your instrument, even if it's only at the beginner level.

What he's describing is something I am currently being advised in doing by my music instructor. Going through one key at a time, in one position at a time, and playing through each chord, one at a time.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

This is the truest post in this thread. I could expand upon this x1000, but it would ultimately serve no purpose other than to piss off all of the fanboys. Also, I'm a new TB member, so I'd better tread lightly for awhile ha!

I like that paragraph by Joe Nerve, too, except for the first two sentences - yet, I still don't see a relation to the topic...
Anyway, welcome to TB!
And at times like this, you never go wrong with saying: Carrots!

 

[Rhythmace]

Joe, as an objective 3rd party, I think you are taking things personally simply because Jeff asserts a firm theory on learning. I don't see that it pushes people away. The real test is whether people have more success with his lessons.
P.S. My favorite quote is from the intro to Freud's "A General Introduction to Psychoanalysis." "The imagination, not god or capitalism, has created the curse of bigness." Jeff is saying that learning is less complicated his way. I think.

 

[bigboy_78]

Can you expound on this? Not following.

I was instructed in piano as a child, before I got too cool. I think the learning I did on piano is the method that JeffBerlin is extolling.

There was never a lesson in theory or technique. Only lessons in music, which were based around playing musical pieces. In order to play those musical pieces, various techniques were employed and the “theory” was learnt in relation to the piece we were working on. Never in a vacuum.

There was no “wax-on-wax-off” type drills to enhance finger speed for example, dexterity was built by playing more and more complex pieces.

…..and now I think about it…I never saw a metronome. My teacher would occasionally count aloud if I was obviously slowing down in a more difficult section, but I set my own tempo. “This piece is quick”, or this “piece is played slowly with expression” or the “Allegro” at the top of the sheet was the only guide. It was never "play this at a steady 96bpm with a click". I’ve never had any trouble playing with a tight band or “locking in” with my drummers despite this lack of click training.

 

[J_Bass]

I was instructed in piano as a child, before I got too cool. I think the learning I did on piano is the method that JeffBerlin is extolling.

There was never a lesson in theory or technique. Only lessons in music, which were based around playing musical pieces. In order to play those musical pieces, various techniques were employed and the “theory” was learnt in relation to the piece we were working on. Never in a vacuum.

There was no “wax-on-wax-off” type drills to enhance finger speed for example, dexterity was built by playing more and more complex pieces.

…..and now I think about it…I never saw a metronome. My teacher would occasionally count aloud if I was obviously slowing down in a more difficult section, but I set my own tempo. “This piece is quick”, or this “piece is played slowly with expression” or the “Allegro” at the top of the sheet was the only guide. It was never "play this at a steady 96bpm with a click". I’ve never had any trouble playing with a tight band or “locking in” with my drummers despite this lack of click training.

This was exactly how I learned the piano, just like you said. Musical theory was another class. Metronome was very, very rare.

One scale at the beginning of the lesson, just one. One chromatic run and that was it. Next, music, music, music.


I had bass lessons years later. Modes, scales, scales, modes. Almost no music. Gave up after 3 years.

 

[J_Bass]

In full honesty, maybe I didn't put the effort to learn that way on the bass. But I think that if the process would be done with music first and the theory being integrated within the music, it would be easier. But that could be just in my case, of course.

 

[bigboy_78]

Could it be that piano (or sax or violin or trumpet) are melodic instruments and lend themselves much more to playing written melodies than the electric bass guitar? A student can spend time learning by playing melodic etudes etc, but once the time comes to play, most modern western music will find the bass player playing roots and 5th and rarely stretching out melodically. (Yes, I know this is a gross generalization)

Perhaps modern bass educators have realised that the role (and maybe ambitions) of the modern bass player is limited and have structured their training to match. I am sure there are some fantastic teachers out there, but my experience is that for most of them teaching is just supplementary income and as long as the student keeps paying, their progress is irrelevant. The online “yearly subscription” type courses even more so. “Give me your money!!. I know 90% of you will never progress past the “joining” process but I’m making more money than I could ever dream of playing gigs”. Add in the need for regular “content” and you start getting some pretty useless training.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Why I get a little up in arms is because I feel that while I believe your intent is good, I think you push away more people than you'd be able to help. I hope that I haven't offended in any way, and should we ever cross paths at NAMM or something (we did once, but there's not a chance you'd remember ), I hope all is cool. You're a lot bigger than me and could kick my ass in big-time .

Thanks for your thoughts. I don't offend easily. I know that people feel strongly regarding their beliefs.

I have a view that if by telling people clearly what I feel works and doesn't work pushes some away, this wasn't my intention. I've tried to make clear in several ways that learning isn't art and I tried in lots of ways to make this clear. I have to say that if people feel pushed away by this, with no disrespect intended, this is their decision to do. It isn't on me. Many people here on Talkbass not only get my meaning but feel anything but pushed away by my stating certain things relating to learning. So I know that I am not offensive in my views.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Can you expound on this? Not following.

These thoughts might show my reasoning for this statement.

Teaching slap isn't a musical principle. It is a physical one.

Teaching groove or locking with drummers by using a metronome is an emphasis on the physical ability to not shift in time. But, music isn't best represented in this manner, even when playing on a click track recording.

The words "chops" refer to the physical ability to play. Music isn't a part of this.

String crossing exercises are technical exercises devoid of musical reasons to use them.

Warmup exercises aren't necessary for several reasons, those being that when you being to play or practice at home, you ARE warming up. When you play a gig, you usually check your gear and have a chance to play in the club. This, too, is warming up.

 

[JeffBerlin]

This is the truest post in this thread. I could expand upon this x1000, but it would ultimately serve no purpose other than to piss off all of the fanboys. Also, I'm a new TB member, so I'd better tread lightly for awhile ha!

I've said this several time but I am content to repeat it!

No one has to do anything my way. I've never stated that my way is the best way to learn because I don't have a way to teach and never said that I did. The method that I use is the method that all players that are taught their instrument via music are taught. Like it or not, this is the only method proven to give players an equal chance at learning how to play in an academic setting. One of the few instruments where music isn't a priority in how one learns is the electric bass. If this statement doesn't feel right, then of course, you have to ignore it.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Could it be that piano (or sax or violin or trumpet) are melodic instruments and lend themselves much more to playing written melodies than the electric bass guitar? A student can spend time learning by playing melodic etudes etc, but once the time comes to play, most modern western music will find the bass player playing roots and 5th and rarely stretching out melodically. (Yes, I know this is a gross generalization)

Perhaps modern bass educators have realised that the role (and maybe ambitions) of the modern bass player is limited and have structured their training to match. I am sure there are some fantastic teachers out there, but my experience is that for most of them teaching is just supplementary income and as long as the student keeps paying, their progress is irrelevant. The online “yearly subscription” type courses even more so. “Give me your money!!. I know 90% of you will never progress past the “joining” process but I’m making more money than I could ever dream of playing gigs”. Add in the need for regular “content” and you start getting some pretty useless training.

Learning is different than playing. Before anyone can play a melody or any kind of music that their instrument was built to provide, they have to first learn how to play the instrument.

Learning via written music creates the only experience of its kind, that of a spontaneous and unified spark of mind, music, hands and instrument at the same nano second. No other experience can help players to grow the brain synapses that store the unified experience and memory of assigning a note to a finger and playing it on a fret because the brain tells you to do this.

If you do this enough times, there will barely be anything in contemporary music that will ever come up that you won't be able to play in a minute.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

Could it be that piano (or sax or violin or trumpet) are melodic instruments and lend themselves much more to playing written melodies than the electric bass guitar?

Hm... from my perspective: no. Bass as an instrument is as melodic as guitar or violin.
I rather think it's what you wrote further; that melodic bass parts are rarely part of popular music. Though, they do exist; as for example in the songs "Defender," "Guyana" or "Mountains" by ManOwaR. These melodic parts made me want to learn bass, that is why I dare to disagree

 

[JeffBerlin]

Joe, as an objective 3rd party, I think you are taking things personally simply because Jeff asserts a firm theory on learning. I don't see that it pushes people away. The real test is whether people have more success with his lessons.
P.S. My favorite quote is from the intro to Freud's "A General Introduction to Psychoanalysis." "The imagination, not god or capitalism, has created the curse of bigness." Jeff is saying that learning is less complicated his way. I think.

I think that lots of people are taking things personally and I invite them to stop doing this if they can.

Interestingly, the learning method that I expound isn't even my method. I don't have a method. It is the way of music education for a long, long time. Bass players have been denied knowledge of this fact to the degree that many appear shocked by the revelation that music should come first in learning. Believe me; I am in no way the author of this philosophy.

 

[Smallmouth_Bass]

I don't have a method.

Do you have a set sequence in learning material or specific concepts as part of the way you teach music? i.e. Is there a rigid curriculum?

 

[KJMO]

You know, until I heard that Jeff disliked metronomes, I never gave it thought. But, my experience has been that playing to metronomes or to music (the same as a metronome, really) never gave me a better sense of time. I decided it's because using a metronome is like practicing running fast by having someone push you fast in a wheelchair. The time is not coming from you, and there is no reason to do the metronome's job (keeping time), if it is doing it for you.

What has worked for me comes from something Benny Greb talks about (although he does advocate using a metronome, albeit in different ways than usual). He basically says if each drum stroke happens where it should, your tempo won't change. I use a feature of my drum module (rhythm gate) that doesn't sound the note you play (this is drums, fwiw) unless it is in time. I found a lot of what I was playing was not where I thought it was by using this, and I hear time much differently now. But mainly, my drum strikes are where I mean for them to be, so my time is better as a result. At any rate, I realize Jeff has different objections to metronomes, and I also know ymmv, etc., but I certainly think it is a reasonable position for someone to have (anti-metronome), so I vote to let Jeff have that position ;-)

 

[Michael Schreiber]

You know, until I heard that Jeff disliked metronomes, I never gave it thought. But, my experience has been that playing to metronomes or to music (the same as a metronome, really) never gave me a better sense of time. I decided it's because using a metronome is like practicing running fast by having someone push you fast in a wheelchair. The time is not coming from you, and there is no reason to do the metronome's job (keeping time), if it is doing it for you.

What has worked for me comes from something Benny Greb talks about (although he does advocate using a metronome, albeit in different ways than usual). He basically says if each drum stroke happens where it should, your tempo won't change. I use a feature of my drum module (rhythm gate) that doesn't sound the note you play (this is drums, fwiw) unless it is in time. I found a lot of what I was playing was not where I thought it was by using this, and I hear time much differently now. But mainly, my drum strikes are where I mean for them to be, so my time is better as a result. At any rate, I realize Jeff has different objections to metronomes, and I also know ymmv, etc., but I certainly think it is a reasonable position for someone to have (anti-metronome), so I vote to let Jeff have that position ;-)

Very interesting post! I'd like to have such a rhythm gate for bass
Though, IMHO, a metronome (or backing track) is a valid measure for practicing alone - as part of technique or performance training, or to practice for an overdub recording; not in lessons though.

 

[aborgman]

The words "chops" refer to the physical ability to play. Music isn't a part of this.

It's a necessary, but not sufficient condition for making music.

Knowing how to use a hammer isn't building a house - but you need to know how to use a hammer to build a house.

String crossing exercises are technical exercises devoid of musical reasons to use them.

There are legitimate reasons to sometimes "isolate" certain parts of an activity for extra training.

There is a reason not all physical activity involves full body workouts - sometimes there is benefit to isolating certain muscle groups.

Warmup exercises aren't necessary for several reasons, those being that when you being to play or practice at home, you ARE warming up. When you play a gig, you usually check your gear and have a chance to play in the club. This, too, is warming up.

In general - I'd agree for electric bass.

For upright - some stretching and prep before playing can be a good thing.

For singers and horn players - there definitely can be some warmup exercises which are beneficial.

 

[consectaneus]

Jeff, I first became aware of some of these thoughts of yours on a video of you in a one on one teaching session. I found it very compelling and persuasive. I too found that when I practiced with the metronome, everything else took second place to the tyranny of that click. If I got off time, I felt I had made a mistake and had to start over to get it right even if there was no musical error (i.e. in note reading). I'm not ready to say the metronome has no place in practice--perhaps someone has a real problem playing on the beat and feels the need to isolate that issue. But I never liked it, found it tedious, and so I guess I was relieved that a teacher/player of you caliber essentially gave me permission to chuck it.

The other aspect of that private video lesson was that in a very short time, you had a good player and reader even better simply by having him play quarter notes from a written score paying attention to long tones. Essentially cutting the fat and proving that a perfect and honest musical bass performance in within reach of everyone.

Also, thank you for hanging in there and putting up with some pretty uncalled for remarks.

 

[Rhythmace]

I think what Jeff and Carol Kaye both say is that learning chord notes is the way to play jazz quickly. Rock is another thing that is not so dependent on learning chord notes to get by. Also. I played some rhythm guitar in a praise band for 2 years and was amazed at the importance of the bass in the overall musical harmony. Inversions are mostly done by the bass. I learned the importance of laying off of the 5th and 6th strings most of the time. Our bass player was great and always playing in modes.
P.S. I am actually a dummer but found out that I had a better sense of tempo playing rhythm guitar. I usually counted off the song as the guitar player.

 

[consectaneus]

I think what Jeff and Carol Kaye both say is that learning chord notes is the way to play jazz quickly.

When I practice chord tone inversions, I start singing phrases like crazy because little ditties pop into my head. Interestingly, mostly a lot of melodies popular in the '40s and '50s--the "Great American Songbook". There is so much melody in those chord tones. I didn't hear this when I practiced scales.