Jeff Berlin asks - What Is Taught Without Only Teaching the Facts!

[Gianni "Orlandez" Orlati]

I am in a similar position, so I can relate to that very well
To me, this thread reinforced the idea to find a personal coach from a totally different genre.
An advantage would be that I can chose the schedule, and budget - and since I know what I want to achieve, I am optimistic the lessons could get to the point quickly without wasting time.
Maybe that might be an idea for you, as well?

Yes I should find a similar arrangement (wife and kids aside of course)

 

[Kubicki Fan]

I never said you have stated you are "superior to anyone," and confidence does not confer arrogance in itself. But some of the comments you have made in your pre-edit posts came across as condescending and judgmental. I am expressing this as an opinion rather than a fact, but perhaps you sensed it too as I see you have gone back and cleaned up your language multiple times, or maybe I have misunderstood you what you meant. For the record I have done a bit of editing to my posts as well.

I think you have a very strong opinion that rubs some people the wrong way. This is not unusual or uncommon with exceptional people such as yourself and I don't think you mean offense. It would be less acceptable if you did not value self-awareness, but I think you do, so it's all good.

No doubt I have offended some as well, even though I am also trying to be helpful and constructive. For any I have offended, I apologize for not communicating in a more appropriate manner.

PM'd

 

[Kubicki Fan]

Not to be too cynical, but the ‘informercial’ comment may have something to do with the fact that Jeff has, in the last few months, begun selling online bass education courses.

You are not cynical or come across as such to anyone that understands how capitalism and selling works.
I can't fault Jeff operating within the established framework. The only thing matters is if the product is great or crap.

 

[Joe Nerve]

There is soooo much I want to say. I'm happy that someone else said most of it, probably better than I could have, in this excellent blog post:

Why Not Being Able to Read Music Means Nothing About Your Musical Ability

Regarding this thread I have come to 3 possible conclusions for myself:

1. I have no idea what Jeff is talking about.

2. I completely disagree with him.

3. Jeff is simply saying that you can't learn the science of music if a teacher is not teaching you the science of music, but rather how to play with a metronome.

And an after thought: I think people get upset because OP consistently, passive aggressively, discredits anyone who hasn't done things "his" way. And his talent seemingly grants a license to do so. People are different. They learn differently too. A truly great teacher understands that and knows how to communicate with each as an individual. The point of being a great teacher, IMO, isn't to prove one is right or wrong, it's to have a student learn whatever it is they set out to learn - and to help them achieve their goals.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Some suggestions?

My personal favorite is a book by Arnie Berle called "Theory & Harmony For The Contemporary Musician". It's been a while since I read it front to back, so I'm not sure how much introductory theory it goes over. One may want to look into a beginner's music theory book, one that at least covers the circle of fifths, intervals, why and how chords are formed, tension and release, etc. (though I believe much of this is in Berle's book). The book goes more into modern jazz theory and will help in learning more advanced chord structures, various progressions you'll commonly find in standard jazz songs (and certainly any rock, pop, or blues song), and much more. Armed with this knowledge I'd hit the real books, as I stated earlier in this thread somwhere, and (starting with simple songs) work through the progressions, any bass lines that may be there, the chords to the song, listen to different recordings of these songs and transcribe what you hear the artists improvising (or the original melodies too if they've altered these any!), and I'd also improvise some of my own walking lines and phrases/riffs. By the time you finish this (which is really a lot more fun than it sounds on paper) I'm sure you'll have a thorough understanding of the song inside and out. Take what you've learned there a move on to another song, keep going til you can start to fully understand more and more complex songs throughout the books.
I'll stop here as this is where I currently am in my musical journey. Before me lies a book I'm currently looking into, "Arranging for Large Jazz Ensembles" by Dick Lowell and Ken Pullig, and on my computer I have open the real book in bass clef. The point of the last sentence is to say that once you've gotten to this point it is only the beginning of the real musical journey! From here lies still endless amounts of knowledge to be gained and internalized, and what you decide to learn from this point on is what will make you your own musician. Shaping your own musical style and sound, and separating your music from that of anyone else's.
I love the video, that I will post part two of, of Jacob Collier's interview. If you listen to his music, it's clear that nobody else sounds like that. But, hearing him talk about himself and his musical upbringing instills in me a belief that, though many may argue with it, nobody is truly special. It's clear Jacob has just gone through the basic steps of learning music (much like those, including his pal Herbie, before him and those who will come after) and is now at a point where he's actively pursuing the knowledge he feels would be of interest to him in adding to his own unique "pallet".

Isn't conversation like this delightful?


Edit: I'll add that this is, to the best of my understanding, what Mr. Berlin would describe a self-taught method. I highly recommend finding a college educated jazz musician to help you understand and internalize what you are reading, seeing, and hearing along your path, as well as to help direct you through songs in the real books, and also recommend more literature that's out there for you to gain from. This is what I've done and would be nowhere near as far off as I am without their guidance and support.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I still have no idea what you're trying to say?

Perhaps one day you will. Good luck, Sir!

 

[JeffBerlin]

There is soooo much I want to say. I'm happy that someone else said most of it, probably better than I could have, in this excellent blog post:

Why Not Being Able to Read Music Means Nothing About Your Musical Ability

Regarding this thread I have come to 3 possible conclusions for myself:

1. I have no idea what Jeff is talking about.

2. I completely disagree with him.

3. Jeff is simply saying that you can't learn the science of music if a teacher is not teaching you the science of music, but rather how to play with a metronome.

And an after thought: I think people get upset because OP consistently, passive aggressively, discredits anyone who hasn't done things "his" way. People are different. They learn differently too. A truly great teacher understands that and knows how to communicate with each as an individual. The point of being a great teacher, IMO, isn't to prove one is right or wrong, it's to have a student learn whatever it is they set out to learn - and to help them achieve their goals.

People can and should make up there own minds and I have said so. There's nothing passive aggressive in my views. They simply are!!! You can agree or not as one wishes.

 

[Gully Foyle]

in re: your final comment - I find that one of my main struggles professionally (not music at all) is be ego-free as regards how others learn, interpret, and apply information - i think that high-performing blinders can be very hard to even notice, let alone remove. Thats how I have read it.

There is soooo much I want to say. I'm happy that someone else said most of it, probably better than I could have, in this excellent blog post:

Why Not Being Able to Read Music Means Nothing About Your Musical Ability

Regarding this thread I have come to 3 possible conclusions for myself:

1. I have no idea what Jeff is talking about.

2. I completely disagree with him.

3. Jeff is simply saying that you can't learn the science of music if a teacher is not teaching you the science of music, but rather how to play with a metronome.

And an after thought: I think people get upset because OP consistently, passive aggressively, discredits anyone who hasn't done things "his" way. And his talent seemingly grants a license to do so. People are different. They learn differently too. A truly great teacher understands that and knows how to communicate with each as an individual. The point of being a great teacher, IMO, isn't to prove one is right or wrong, it's to have a student learn whatever it is they set out to learn - and to help them achieve their goals.

 

[Joe Nerve]

in re: your final comment - I find that one of my main struggles professionally (not music at all) is be ego-free as regards how others learn, interpret, and apply information - i think that high-performing blinders can be very hard to even notice, let alone remove. Thats how I have read it.

In one of my quests to further my music education, I got on the phone and called multiple teachers to see who I could/would connect with. This was about 20 years ago. One of the numbers I called was Pat Pfeifer (author of Bass for Dummies - though he hadn't written the book yet). His price was almost triple what the other teachers were asking, yet I understood him when we talked. A week later I was on a train to start my lessons. He didn't start out teaching me the things Jeff is talking about. He started me listening and learning the styles of different players... bla, bla, bla... I learned tons from that guy in 3 lessons. The commute and price wound up being too steep for me, or I'd have continued. Anyhow, on top of all that the dude recommended for gigs for the following 2 years!!!! He believed in me, he communicated well with me, he helped me...

He's still the highest paid bass teacher in NYC, and nobody is complaining or arguing with him.

I had a point in all that but I'm in the middle of exercising and may have lost it... I should get out of this thread, but I sense that I'm stuck .

 

[JeffBerlin]

You are not cynical or come across as such to anyone that understands how capitalism and selling works.
I can't fault Jeff operating within the established framework. The only thing matters is if the product is great or crap.

I haven't once mentioned my lessons. When anyone asked about them here on Talkbass, I didn't discuss them respecting the rules of the group. The points that I raise here have been stated for years. But, it is true that people here apparently work really hard to not get my thoughts than to get them. They invent conclusions and consider them factual. What a waste of your own energy especially when people may not know the subject that they are offering opinions about.

Learning has a background. It is a predictable and trustworthy system if the methods and systems of teaching have been proven to educate. Bass players who pay to learn have invested in an educational system that in my opinion and for the most part, hasn't improved bass players to where either their financial investment was well made or that they actually improved to where they can be considered for a variety of work. Finally, many still cannot play with ease a musical idea that comes to them on their bass. This is a really clear indicator that they haven't been taught correctly. You can't argue with one's inability to comfortably play their own music. I would think that people would want to know this.

 

[Smallmouth_Bass]

People are different. They learn differently too. A truly great teacher understands that and knows how to communicate with each as an individual.

What I am getting from Jeff's points is that as long as the learning is concentrated around practicing musical content (reading standard notation, harmony, melody & rhythm), then you are getting the most effective and most beneficial value to learn music.

Art, performance and emotional elements are separate things.

 

[JeffBerlin]

In one of my quests to further my music education, I got on the phone and called multiple teachers to see who I could/would connect with. This was about 20 years ago. One of the numbers I called was Pat Pfeifer (author of Bass for Dummies - though he hadn't written the book yet). His price was almost triple what the other teachers were asking, yet I understood him when we talked. A week later I was on a train to start my lessons. He didn't start out teaching me the things Jeff is talking about. He started me listening and learning the styles of different players... bla, bla, bla... I learned tons from that guy in 3 lessons. The commute and price wound up being too steep for me, or I'd have continued. Anyhow, on top of all that the dude recommended for gigs for the following 2 years!!!! He believed in me, he communicated well with me, he helped me...

He's still the highest paid bass teacher in NYC, and nobody is complaining or arguing with him.

I had a point in all that but I'm in the middle of exercising and may have lost it... I should get out of this thread, but I sense that I'm stuck .

Nobody argues with me either, those that understand that music counts in bass education. It seems that the players that don't regard the learning of music as primary are the ones that have a problem. But, it shouldn't be. This is what I hope to change in players' thinking.

Did your teacher give you musical content to practice? Can you share what was given to you to work on?

 

[Joe Nerve]

Nobody argues with me either, those that understand that music counts in bass education. It seems that the players that don't regard the learning of music as primary are the ones that have a problem. But, it shouldn't be. It is a sign of the times when the highest paid bass teacher in New York taught you three lessons and (assumably) didn't give you musical content to practice. This is why I question the validity of bass teachers and why, in a small way you validated my concern.

And that's not a passive aggressive swipe at both me and Pat Pfeifer?

OK.

We get it Jeff. You're the most qualified bass teacher.

Yes, that was sarcastic, but I'm not perfect and yer starting to get to me a little.

 

[JPaulGeddy]

I would certainly agree that if I'm paying tuition and going to a school/class, I am expecting/demanding music education and not performance/technique. I may seek out a tutor for technique, but academically, I am looking for theory and 'music'. Not 'feel' and 'time' and 'locking in with a drummer'. And especially not 'stage moves'. Those are all valid for performance, but not part of a music education.

 

[JeffBerlin]

What I am getting from Jeff's points is that as long as the learning is concentrated around practicing musical content (reading standard notation, harmony, melody & rhythm), then you are getting the most effective and most beneficial value to learn music.

Art, performance and emotional elements are separate things.

It really is that easy to understand! Thanks for getting this so easily. Your comment validates my feeling that some people may actually choose to not understand my views when they aren't so hard to grasp. Thank you again!

 

[Gully Foyle]

The extensive editing is disconcerting

 

[JeffBerlin]

And that's not a passive aggressive swipe at both me and Pat Pfeifer?

OK.

We get it Jeff. You're the most qualified bass teacher.

Yes, that was sarcastic, but I'm not perfect and yer starting to get to me a little.

Good point! I changed my wording. Here it is: Can you share what your bass teacher gave you interns of musical content to practice?

 

[Joe Nerve]

The extensive editing is disconcerting

You need to be a little quicker. Try reading threads to a metronome at a slow speed, then up it notch or two...

 

[JeffBerlin]

Pardon me as I sometimes edit my posts. I am trying to adjust to the wishes of people here to communicate in a manner that is more acceptable to you. Thank you for your input.

 

[JeffBerlin]

You need to be a little quicker. Try reading threads to a metronome at a slow speed, then up it notch or two...

Can you share with us what your teacher in NY gave you as study material? I am curious to know. Thank you.