Jeff Berlin asks - What Is Taught Without Only Teaching the Facts!

[Quinn Roberts]

Great Stuff, Im farely somewhat new to bass, and I have been trying to learn here and there, I have recently read and seen many of your videos and I completely get what you are saying in regards to the approach of learning to play bass.... My question is where can I find books that will teach in regards to your methods etc Harmonic , chord to

Real books, though some may disagree, are a great resource I believe. If you start with simpler songs, connecting the common progressions you'll start to notice to the melodies, eventually you can work up to more complex music in the book and, even if you haven't seen a piece before, chances are you will already be able to follow trough the progressions in the piece. From there I'd also recommend taking some of the solos you hear on these great tunes and trying to get at them by ear! The possibilities in these books are really endless!

 

[Joe Nerve]

The only proven academic method to make better players is to be taught music. Being in denial about this doesn't make it less true. And, as I suggested, if you disagree, do some investigating and find anything in music history where people weren't taught by only studying musical content. It isn't what you believe about my opinion that counts. I'm suggesting that no one can show that my statement isn't completely accurate.

OK. Some direct questions.

First and most importantly, what does what I italicized even mean? How is that relevant to becoming a successful bass player or better musician, and how is that NOT an opinion?

I have become a much, MUCH better player through practice, listening, self study, playing with others, and playing with a metronome. This is a fact. I can post recordings and successes I had at age 17, and then document where I'm at today if you truly need proof. That's rock solid proof to me.

I also don't understand what you're saying in regard to researching to prove that what you're saying isn't your opinion, it's fact? If it's that simple to prove with research please then provide it. I don't even know what I'd be researching. You seem to be very clear on this.

Maybe I'm just completely missing your point altogether. I honestly don't get it.

Those are my questions.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Someone who has never touched a bass - has no idea how to hold it, no idea how to fret a note, no idea how to mute or change timbre with hand positioning, no pick or fingerstyle technique, etc... would already be a good bass player?

I can't agree with that.

They would have a great basis to BECOME a good bass player - but being a good player requires both the mental/musical skills and the physical/technique skills necessary to implement your musical vision.

And they're a knowledgeable pianist? Are you hearing this example you're giving? Has this person ever played with anyone else is his life, or is he blind like Stevie. I might give it to you then, lol.

 

[aborgman]

Oddly enough, this kind of crystallizes Jeff's position in my mind (if I'm inferring correctly).

In your example, yes, technique makes him a better player.

...but Mr. Berlin has explicitly and repeatedly stated that ONLY musical based learning can make someone a better player.

It's the absolute that I disagree with.

The guy that can type 100wpm without error gets paid $10/hr to transcribe other people's work. The guy that only types 40wpm, but is well-versed in literature, can create art.

Yes - absolutely having BOTH skills is preferred.

Also - the transcription and layout of others work can itself be "art"

I *think* part of the emphasis here is that, like Chris Squire, Dave Gilmour, and a huge host of others say - they are musicians that happen to play x instrument. If you learn the music and theory, the technique can come along much, much easier than the reverse.

Absolutely - I don't even disagree with the idea that there should be more emphasis placed on "musical" learning than technical in bass instruction, I just disagree with the idea that there is ZERO value in technical instruction.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

OK. Some direct questions.

First and most importantly, what does what I italicized even mean? How is that relevant to becoming a successful bass player or better musician, and how is that NOT an opinion?

I have become a much, MUCH better player through practice, listening, self study, playing with others, and playing with a metronome. This is a fact. I can post recordings and successes I had at age 17, and then document where I'm at today if you truly need proof. That's rock solid proof to me.

I also don't understand what you're saying we should research to prove that what you're saying isn't your opinion, it's fact? If it's that simple to prove with research please then provide it. I don't even know what I'd be researching. You're very clear on this.

Maybe I'm just completely missing what you're saying. I honestly don't get it.

Those are my questions.

He's not denying the examples you just gave, I think he would almost agree with the majority of them. He's talking about paying for a university education or instruction from another individual.

 

[aborgman]

And they're a knowledgeable pianist? Are you hearing this example you're giving? Has this person ever played with anyone else is his life, or is he blind like Stevie. I might give it to you then, lol.

Lets take my my 12year old son for an example -

Playing piano for 7 years
Good grasp on theory and harmony
Also plays bass clarinet and saxophone
Sight reads treble and bass clef and both in combination (piano music) well.
Watched me play bass his entire life

Is he a good bass player? No.

In the 1-2 times a year he picks up a bass - he can't manage to get a single good sounding note to come out of the instrument. Doesn't hold it right. Can't fret a note. Can't pluck a string with any sort of rhythm or consistency.

He has a good BASIS to become a good bass player. With some technique instruction (but no musical instruction - that is transferable from piano) he would improve greatly.

He would become a much better bass player merely through technique instruction. Exactly what Mr. Berlin claims cannot happen.

 

[TwentyHz]

Interesting comments from everyone. My quick list of response.

...
The only proven academic method to make better players is to be taught music.
...
I think that from now one, I will ignore any comment that isn't a question directed at me. People are within their rights to offer their opinions, but I think that it is best if I ignore them all.
...
Cheers!

Jeff -

Thank you for rejoining TB and investing time and thought into communicating a carefully considered observation that stimulates such interesting dialogue.

Because I see great value in the train of thought you offer,
and because I simultaneously see great value in how and why others come to disagree so strongly,
I'll respectfully encourage you to try one final restatement.... one which might better reflect some of the feedback here.

I think that some of the feedback suggests some minor tweaks to your assertions
- tweaks that would diffuse some of the 'push-back' without (I think) diminishing at all the power of your message -
and thus would help allow this conversation you have offered to deepen and ripen.

Simply put, it seems that there may be strong consensus that
bass players who have certain goals tied to certain definitions of playing "better"
might be very well served to closely consider your binary description of bass pedagogy (academic vs. self)
and to research/explore your assertion that academic instruction is the only proven method.

It would be so very interesting to see this thread continue along that path, by honing in on what those "certains" are... so that your unique (and frankly --- historically important) train of thought could be explored more deeply by those interested in that 'certain' path, and at least observed and understood by others.

At the same time, perhaps, such more-clearly-defined "certain goals" and "certain definitions of better" might spawn a parallel discussion for the other goals and definitions outside of (pardon my shorthand) academic, Berlin's-"better" certains.

Perhaps, like "best pickguard for metal" inquiries, we might develop questions akin to:

• What is the best pedagogy for (to-be-defined Berlin-framework, or Berlin sub-framework A, B)?
• What is the best pedagogy for (non-Berlin framework A, non-Berlin B)?
• When might hybridization be better than either/or? (e.g. the formally trained symphony musician gains new insights eating Mescaline and playing washtub bass for 13 hours at Burning Man, comes back and writes his Magnum Opus / paints his Masterpiece) (sorry, ignore that).

TB - I ain't trying to gush here, but we have a very important opportunity to keep an open dialogue going with a uniquely brilliant and important bassist.

Jeff - I ain't trying to be a jerk, here... but perhaps successful people who were methodical about working towards a certain definition of success, understandably reverse-engineer truths based on their own experience (and complementary experiences of others), and might thus understandably conceptualize the "other frameworks(s)" as not "not-success-path" as they have come to know it.

(oh, boy - why I am even chiming in? I have no dog in this hunt; I don't know an H-sharp from a football bat).
Ah well.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Lets take my my 12year old son for an example -

Playing piano for 7 years
Good grasp on theory and harmony
Also plays bass clarinet and saxophone
Sight reads treble and bass clef and both in combination (piano music) well.
Watched me play bass his entire life

Is he a good bass player? No.

In the 1-2 times a year he picks up a bass - he can't manage to get a single good sounding note to come out of the instrument. Doesn't hold it right. Can't fret a note. Can't pluck a string with any sort of rhythm or consistency.

He has a good BASIS to become a good bass player. With some technique instruction (but no musical instruction - that is transferable from piano) he would improve greatly.

He would become a much better bass player merely through technique instruction. Exactly what Mr. Berlin claims cannot happen.

Okay, there's some information at least. Now, what if your son were to play the instrument alone to recordings and jam a little with friends and family for just a month or two. Do you not think that with his obviously adequate musical knowledge (more than many adults in this thread even admit they have) he couldn't figure out how to play a bass on his own, having been already taught the fundamental aspects of music academically?

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Jeff -

Thank you for rejoining TB and investing time and thought into communicating a carefully considered observation that stimulates such interesting dialogue.

Because I see great value in the train of thought you offer,
and because I simultaneously see great value in how and why others come to disagree so strongly,
I'll respectfully encourage you to try one final restatement.... one which might better reflect some of the feedback here.

I think that some of the feedback suggests some minor tweaks to your assertions
- tweaks that would diffuse some of the 'push-back' without (I think) diminishing at all the power of your message -
and thus would help allow this conversation you have offered to deepen and ripen.

Simply put, it seems that there may be strong consensus that
bass players who have certain goals tied to certain definitions of playing "better"
might be very well served to closely consider your binary description of bass pedagogy (academic vs. self)
and to research/explore your assertion that academic instruction is the only proven method.

It would be so very interesting to see this thread continue along that path, by honing in on what those "certains" are... so that your unique (and frankly --- historically important) train of thought could be explored more deeply by those interested in that 'certain' path, and at least observed and understood by others.

At the same time, perhaps, such more-clearly-defined "certain goals" and "certain definitions of better" might spawn a parallel discussion for the other goals and definitions outside of (pardon my shorthand) academic, Berlin's-"better" certains.

Perhaps, like "best pickguard for metal" inquiries, we might develop questions akin to:

• What is the best pedagogy for (to-be-defined Berlin-framework, or Berlin sub-framework A, B)?
• What is the best pedagogy for (non-Berlin framework A, non-Berlin B)?
• When might hybridization be better than either/or? (e.g. the formally trained symphony musician gains new insights eating Mescaline and playing washtub bass for 13 hours at Burning Man, comes back and writes his Magnum Opus / paints his Masterpiece) (sorry, ignore that).

TB - I ain't trying to gush here, but we have a very important opportunity to keep an open dialogue going with a uniquely brilliant and important bassist.

Jeff - I ain't trying to be a jerk, here... but perhaps successful people who were methodical about working towards a certain definition of success, understandably reverse-engineer truths based on their own experience (and complementary experiences of others), and might thus understandably conceptualize the "other frameworks(s)" as not "not-success-path" as they have come to know it.

(oh, boy - why I am even chiming in? I have no dog in this hunt; I don't know an H-sharp from a football bat).
Ah well.

++1

 

[aborgman]

Okay, there's some information at least. Now, what if your son were to play the instrument alone to recordings and jam a little with friends and family for just a month or two. Do you not think that with his obviously adequate musical knowledge (more than many adults in this thread even admit they have) he couldn't figure out how to play a bass on his own, having been already taught the fundamental aspects of music academically?

Maybe... or maybe, like some upright bass players (I've never seen this issue with electric) poor technique would cause long term crippling injuries.

...and the fact that someone CAN learn on their own without instruction, doesn't imply that the instruction has zero value.

The point of a teacher isn't only to teach you things it would be impossible for you to learn on your own - they are also there to teach you things you could learn on your own more quickly and/or efficiently. We could all learn almost anything in any subject on our own. We use teachers to shortcut the process and make it less painful and more efficient.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

I agree, much better example, IMHO, @aborgman !

how to play a bass on his own, having been already taught the fundamental aspects of music academically?

Even if together with a teacher, if it happens along musical content, wouldn't it still be in line with what JeffBerlin said?

 

[Gully Foyle]

I'd love to see a truly exploratory dialogue continue, with all parties backing up, rethinking, recontextualizing, and seeking mutual understanding.

Jeff -

Thank you for rejoining TB and investing time and thought into communicating a carefully considered observation that stimulates such interesting dialogue.

Because I see great value in the train of thought you offer,
and because I simultaneously see great value in how and why others come to disagree so strongly,
I'll respectfully encourage you to try one final restatement.... one which might better reflect some of the feedback here.

I think that some of the feedback suggests some minor tweaks to your assertions
- tweaks that would diffuse some of the 'push-back' without (I think) diminishing at all the power of your message -
and thus would help allow this conversation you have offered to deepen and ripen.

Simply put, it seems that there may be strong consensus that
bass players who have certain goals tied to certain definitions of playing "better"
might be very well served to closely consider your binary description of bass pedagogy (academic vs. self)
and to research/explore your assertion that academic instruction is the only proven method.

It would be so very interesting to see this thread continue along that path, by honing in on what those "certains" are... so that your unique (and frankly --- historically important) train of thought could be explored more deeply by those interested in that 'certain' path, and at least observed and understood by others.

At the same time, perhaps, such more-clearly-defined "certain goals" and "certain definitions of better" might spawn a parallel discussion for the other goals and definitions outside of (pardon my shorthand) academic, Berlin's-"better" certains.

Perhaps, like "best pickguard for metal" inquiries, we might develop questions akin to:

• What is the best pedagogy for (to-be-defined Berlin-framework, or Berlin sub-framework A, B)?
• What is the best pedagogy for (non-Berlin framework A, non-Berlin B)?
• When might hybridization be better than either/or? (e.g. the formally trained symphony musician gains new insights eating Mescaline and playing washtub bass for 13 hours at Burning Man, comes back and writes his Magnum Opus / paints his Masterpiece) (sorry, ignore that).

TB - I ain't trying to gush here, but we have a very important opportunity to keep an open dialogue going with a uniquely brilliant and important bassist.

Jeff - I ain't trying to be a jerk, here... but perhaps successful people who were methodical about working towards a certain definition of success, understandably reverse-engineer truths based on their own experience (and complementary experiences of others), and might thus understandably conceptualize the "other frameworks(s)" as not "not-success-path" as they have come to know it.

(oh, boy - why I am even chiming in? I have no dog in this hunt; I don't know an H-sharp from a football bat).
Ah well.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Maybe... or maybe, like some upright bass players (I've never seen this issue with electric) poor technique would cause long term crippling injuries.

...and the fact that someone CAN learn on their own without instruction, doesn't imply that the instruction has zero value.

The point of a teacher isn't only to teach you things it would be impossible for you to learn on your own - they are also there to teach you things you could learn on your own more quickly and/or efficiently. We could all learn almost anything in any subject on our own. We use teachers to shortcut the process and make it less painful and more efficient.

And now it's upright bass? Couldn't he look on YouTube for proper technique like so many have suggested here? I in fact did this just last week to make sure my form was appropriate as I'm fairly new to upright myself. Or read the first couple pages of Simandl's? Another thing I've done in recent weeks. I've been arguing that one who is supposedly a knowledgeable pianist doesn't require bass instruction to be a good bassist, not that they don't need instruction to prevent "crippling injuries". I'll continue this argument further yet, however, by saying that, shouldn't any sensible person know how to prevent injury in themselves? If you're in pain, stop, look and adjust, and proceed. If it continues stop for now and dissect what may be the cause, then return again tomorrow. The idea of "no pain, no gain" hopefully doesn't apply to the common novice musician, I know it doesn't for any I've encountered including myself.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

I agree, much better example, IMHO, @aborgman !



Even if together with a teacher, if it happens along musical content, wouldn't it still be in line with what JeffBerlin said?

I'm going to agree with you based of the facts of that statement, but I'm honestly not 100% sure what you mean.

 

[JeffBerlin]

OK. Some direct questions.

First and most importantly, what does what I italicized even mean? How is that relevant to becoming a successful bass player or better musician, and how is that NOT an opinion?

I have become a much, MUCH better player through practice, listening, self study, playing with others, and playing with a metronome. This is a fact. I can post recordings and successes I had at age 17, and then document where I'm at today if you truly need proof. That's rock solid proof to me.

I also don't understand what you're saying in regard to researching to prove that what you're saying isn't your opinion, it's fact? If it's that simple to prove with research please then provide it. I don't even know what I'd be researching. You seem to be very clear on this.

Maybe I'm just completely missing your point altogether. I honestly don't get it.

Those are my questions.

Thanks for a clear comment. What needs to be researched are people's trust in musical methods that are taught by bass educators that I state have no precedence in music history. People have refuted this. Thus, I suggested that people research for themselves how literally everyone who isn't self taught learned how to play. I don't have to provide any info because the entirely of the world's musical society are the proof of this. It's up to people that see this statement as incorrect to show how players didn't learn by being taught how to read music.

Here are a couple of quotes to validate my views.

"Without craftsmanship, inspiration is a mere reed shaken in the wind." - Brahms

"I was obliged to be industrious. Whoever is equally industrious will succeed equally well." - Bach

Let's start with an easy topic; Practicing with metronomes. Bass players that use one don't read nor understand how music works off of their basses for the most part.

Research and see if anyone ever stated that they used a metronome where no written music was involved to be practiced. I will bet that no one will find anything. And if you do not, this is important to think about.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Don't be confused Jeff, people aren't offended by your opinions people are confused by your opinions and why you think they are absolutely true.

Everyone, practically without exception, who aren't self taught were taught by reading and practicing music. If the statement seems wrong, this is why I invite people to research this for themselves.

 

[aborgman]

And now it's upright bass? Couldn't he look on YouTube for proper technique like so many have suggested here? I in fact did this just last week to make sure my form was appropriate as I'm fairly new to upright myself. Or read the first couple pages of Simandl's? Another thing I've done in recent weeks. I've been arguing that one who is supposedly a knowledgeable pianist doesn't require bass instruction to be a good bassist, not that they don't need instruction to prevent "crippling injuries".

Those ARE instruction.

Teaching doesn't have to be communicated in person, or with the spoken word.

I'll continue this argument further yet, however, by saying that, shouldn't any sensible person know how to prevent injury in themselves? If you're in pain, stop, look and adjust, and proceed. If it continues stop for now and dissect what may be the cause, then return again tomorrow. The idea of "no pain, no gain" hopefully doesn't apply to the common novice musician, I know it doesn't for any I've encountered including myself.

Not all technique issues involve immediate pain. RSIs often involve irreparable damage over time that only becomes a problem after much of the damage has already been done.

...and upright bass players seem to have a significant issue with this - there is in fact a whole technique book (see: the Alexander Technique for Double Bass) based around this fact.

 

[Gully Foyle]

This, in particular, is representative of a flawed mindset:

"I was obliged to be industrious. Whoever is equally industrious will succeed equally well." - Bach

By this logic, the only reason everyone is not Tom Brady, or John Entwistle, or Albert Einstein, is that they just didnt try hard enough. This is not true.

There is a specific human tendency to this - psychologists have studied the rich, and they generally think that they are rich because they worked harder than everyone else. This is a fallacy, and I think equally applicable to those rich in talent and aptitude as well.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I think to understand your point and agree, in general.
But isn't it depending on how one approaches and reads this thread?
Sure, I can read it with a detective's intention to find faults.
I also can read it with the intention to look for what might benefit my learning.
And if I feel offended by his claims, I first may ask myself: why do I feel offended? Do I imply things on my own?

Just saying, that if I recognize I have problems with absolute thinking, why would I read it under that premise? I am also free to read it from his perspective, well knowing that my impression / experience might be different.

In the end, I am reading this to get impulses or to learn.
So, if there's a glimpse of hope that I can learn something, I am willing to forget about his absolute tone and focus on what might be useful to me. Feels to me as if it boils down to rather why someone is reading - than how someone is writing

I don't see an absolute tone to be honest. People seem to have made this up. I've stated things like "exceptions aside" or, "for the most part" or "nearly 100%." There's always exceptions, but people don't seem to be OK with near absolutes.

Go to the internet today and call up ten musicians at random. You will discover that they are either self taught (in charge of all that applies to their playing) or they were trained in music. Go back as far as you wish in music history. Look at musicians today. See if there are any exceptions to my comments. If you find little or nothing to contradict my views, then simply ponder this fact the next time that one used a metronome to acquire good time because this concept doesn't appear anywhere in music history either. If you don't agree, then do the research. Bass players believe things that are fantasy and a little research might show this to them. I hope so because there is a great way to learn if people are really and truly interested.

 

[JeffBerlin]

His main stated point has been: learning with musical content is the only way to learn.

No! You are wrong! My main point is that if you decide to pay to learn, musical content should be the very core, the very method of what you are taught. Other than being self taught, learning music is the ONLY manner that practically the entirety of the world's community of musicians for centuries were taught.

I've emphasised the use of a self taught learning experience which is broad, non-specific, and comes with no rules. But it made it possible for 100% of everyone reading this to discover something in their musical lives that they didn't discover in the lessons. 100% of you!