Jeff Berlin asks - What Is Taught Without Only Teaching the Facts!

[SteveCS]

...or the nice old woman...

Precisely what I did back in the 80s. I discovered that a friend's mother was a piano teacher - for the next year I spent Thursday evenings being very 'uncool' learning theory with her and a piano in the attic whilst my mates were off boozing etc in the town. Best 'small money' I ever spent...

 

[JeffBerlin]

I think people get offended when opinions are presented as facts. And I'm pretty sure that's a fact.

I love playing bass.

I think that this will be my last comment in thread. Here is why!

I asked people in several posts to research certain points that I raise. No one did that I am aware of.

The only proven way that guarantees musical improvement is to practice musical content on your instrument. If some feel that this comment is not correct, I invite you to research music history and see if any other approach to learning took place.

Now research and see if any mention of learning time, locking with other musicians, or technique lessons without using music to develop those techniques ever existed in music education. Next, research and see if anyone can identify any lesson in music education where music itself wasn't the core of the lessons being taught.

I will end this thread here! I agree that this is going on too long. I invite everyone to open up their minds and look into this. You might be surprised by what you DON'T find!

Good luck!!!!!!!

 

[David A. Davis]

The truth shall set you free, but first it will piss you off.

 

[Joe Nerve]

The truth shall set you free, but first it will piss you off.

I think that might very well be why OP has wound up getting himself kicked off TB so many times .

My opinion is as others have already stated, people have different goals. Music is art. There are no rules. There is also no absolute definition of success.

Some people excel in one area of learning and playing while others excel in another. Some people kill it in every area. Most bass players will never achieve the level of expertise of Jeff Berlin. Either they flat out can’t, or have no desire to.

I’ve worked with a handful of virtuoso musicians and something that seems common among them is that they often (though not always) believe that others can do what they themselves can, and if they can’t the only reason is because they haven’t applied themselves - or been taught properly. That simply isn’t true. I doubt with all the education and practice in the world that Dee Dee Ramone would ever have the playing skills or knowledge of Victor Wooten. Yet Dee Dee’s skills and musicianship have touched and influenced far more people than Victor’s ever could have (at least in the days before the internet). OK, that last part might be arguable, but you get the idea. And I’d be willing to argue it.

If someone aspires to play like Jeff Berlin, then I think it would serve them best to listen to him. If they have other goals, then they might want to listen to someone else. Sorry, but I don’t think OP is the definition of bass guitar (and I’m not implying he ever implied that he is). He’s one of many incredibly gifted and talented players. There are however many less skilled and talented players that have achieved equal and more success.

 

[aborgman]

Notice that being told not to drink and drive offends no one. The statement "Smoking Kills" doesn't even offend smokers. In all things, there are do's and don't that are shared. Why are bass players offended when I do the same thing? Some people seem to work harder not to get my thoughts than to get them. It is a mystery to me how sharing something meant to give people ta chance at musical improvement actually appear to rub people the wrong way. I have to confess that I just don't get it!

Because those things are objective things.

You're making absolute, objective statements about subjective subjects with no or little evidentiary support.

 

[aborgman]

The only proven way that guarantees musical improvement is to practice musical content on your instrument. If some feel that this comment is not correct, I invite you to research music history and see if any other approach to learning took place.

1) That way does not guarantee musical improvement. It significantly increases the odds of musical improvement, but there are no guarantees.

2) Practicing musical content on other instruments can be a path to musical improvement.

3) Technique work, academic understanding of theory, etc. can be a path to musical improvement.

4) "Musical improvement" is a subjective, personal, opinion based standard - not a generall objectively measurable thing.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Precisely what I did back in the 80s. I discovered that a friend's mother was a piano teacher - for the next year I spent Thursday evenings being very 'uncool' learning theory with her and a piano in the attic whilst my mates were off boozing etc in the town. Best 'small money' I ever spent...

Sounds like my situation now almost, lol. Either way, I'm sure it was very "cool" after you learned what she had to teach you!

 

[redstrand]

I teach for a living and the OP is quite far off base, no one learns the same, listens the same or comprehends the same. Ever.
Now multiply this out to the 120-150 students most of us handle and you see why the OP is entitled to his opinion, but the fact is everyone has a different way of learning and his way is just one of them (and quite confining). I'm fortunate to of had the music teacher that I've had for years, but we've accommodated each other A LOT, butted heads at times. We've made each other better at what we do and that's what counts. I'm sure that Mr. Berlin is talented as all get out, but let's be realistic and realize that these last couple of threads are trolling at best and from some of the comments silly at worst.

 

[Joe Nerve]

@JeffBerlin , cuz I didn't quote any message.

I wanna go off just a little bit more with this ...

In college I studied theatrical arts. It's what my BA is in. One of our acting teachers talked one day about an energy difference in people. While there are of course variations, this professor told us that most people have their energy focused in one of three places - their heads, their hearts, or their groins. I believe that to be true. And you can often tell just by watching and talking to someone - there are intellectual types, emotional types, and sexual types. If someone has an abundance of energy in any of these places, that is where their art is most likely to come from. That's not saying they don't have the capacity to develop the other areas, it's just what will come most easily to them.

In art, and ESPECIALLY in bass playing, I think this is an important thing to recognize. I am not a mathematical/intellectual type of person. I could study music theory for years and still come up empty handed (though I continue to work at it). Others will pick up immediately and it will catapult them forward. For a student, especially a newbie, I think this is where things get dangerous. My understanding of what Jeff is saying will do nothing more than frustrate someone who's simply not wired that way. When they instead may very well be inspired by someone who doesn't believe the things that are being put out in this thread.

I want to be cautious in the examples I use, but would Elvis have been as successful a singer had he made the study of harmony and theory his life's mission?

If I had believed at age 15 that this was what was required of me to become a successful musician, I wouldn't be earning my living as a musician today. Nor having the decades of enjoyment my playing has granted me. I got into guitar, as most kids do, because I thought it would get me laid. As I learned more on the instrument I realized my playing was centered in my emotions, and that's around the time I switched over to bass. I worked really hard at learning the math and mechanics of my art, and fell on my face time and time again. Then I started working with a metronome, working on my groove, my creativity, my ear, working on working well with other musicians - all the things Jeff throws by the wayside.... but it's THOSE things that afford me the joys that I have today as a musician.

I'll state it again - I love playing bass. I will continue to grow as a bass player till the day I die. I don't think what's laid out in this thread is however the best path for me. It might very well be for someone else.

Gots stuffs to do or I'd edit and clarify. Here's hoping that made sense .

 

[SteveCS]

Sounds like my situation now almost, lol. Either way, I'm sure it was very "cool" after you learned what she had to teach you!

Indeed it was, and I ended up with a Royal School of Music certificate to prove it, but over and above the 'facts, and this is another dimension of the teacher role, she fired my curiosity for and love of music, which is probably in no small part why I'm still playing and all but 1 of my friends (an excellent drummer) from that time are not.
What's your 'situation'?

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Indeed it was, and I ended up with a Royal School of Music very to prove it, but over and above the 'facts, and this is another dimension of the teacher role, she fired my curiosity for and love of music, which is probably in no small part why I'm still playing and all but 1 of my friends (an excellent drummer) from that time are not.
What's your 'situation'?

Well you may have just started a rant here, lol.
Certainly not in any real academia, although I've looked into the local university some, I've been getting music lessons from a local jazz guitarist and soon a local upright bassist also. Much as you described though, my friends would much rather go out for some tomfoolery, whilst (especially as of late) I'd rather spend my time learning music. The irony of the whole thing is, I'd never have started music had it not been for majority of my friends who play guitar and one who plays drums (also, like your case, the only one of my friends I foresee truly still playing music here in a couple years). Me having hardly any experience with an instrument (other than a middle school stint on sax) I thought they all were far beyond me knowledge wise, and certainly in skill. So I made it my goal from day one (a goal I still have today) to learn strictly music theory. I had a small hope that, if I just learned theory, me having no experience with a bass guitar wouldn't hinder me playing music all too much with my pals. After just a short months time though I realized that what I thought my friends knew so well really was just them being confident finger flailing and pounding out I-V-IV plagal cadences. And in a matter of a year I was well beyond any of them (except for the drummer whose been formally trained since grade school) both in knowledge and now in skill thanks to that knowledge. I hate to admit it, but now I have trouble jamming with these friends of mine. They've literally been playing the same covers and riffs for four years now.. And even when they ask me how it is that I've improved so much in a "short" time, (my answer simple, I learned music. My favorite quote for them is, "I'm not special, I can just read a book". Which, not to derail my own rant, is a lot of what I see here in this thread. It's hard for people to fathom what they don't already know and understand. They think a person is special because they're capable of performing some feat, when in reality that person just spent their own time learning what is necessary to accomplish their goals, whilst everyone else went on to shoot the poopie.) they still refuse to take even a week to learn some common progressions and their seventh chord shapes (let alone any altered, extended, or even inverted chords). In fact, I'm about on my last straw with a couple of them (ironic it'd ever get to this point even), I gave them the song Freddie Freeloader to learn as something we can all jam together on. I couldn't think of an easier song out there (Green Onions maybe?). Needless to say, the drummer is gung-ho, the only one who learned the song so far. So sadly we only get to play it with a group when I've got my jazz teacher over... This has lead me to start searching out more musicians in my area though too, so there's always some light in the dark!

Edit: Not sure if I broke a rule with my language, but "shoot the poopie".

 

[fdeck]

The truth shall set you free, but first it will piss you off.

Truth, clearly articulated, and supported by evidence, doesn't need to be supported by slogans.

 

[5thsand4ths]

No formal lessons. No charts.

 

[natobasso]

There are a multitude of learning approaches when only a couple will do for everyone no matter what style of bass they play.

Ah, a classic Jeff Berlin question. Did you have to put your own name in the title?

You say this a lot, that teaching bass is done wrong, but your stance, for one, is contradictory and, two, I've never heard you say what is your exact opinion and method on how bass "should" be taught without using these contradictions as the basis of your argument?

You are good at creating "controversy" but not so good at taking a specific stand. Metronones are "wrong" and teaching is done "wrong" but I'd rather hear you answer the question on how exactly you teach "correctly"? Then there's something to talk about, and something to debate.

Remember, you won't ever be completely right and you have to come to terms with this before starting discussions based on "absolutes" like this. You aren't helping anyone without first definining your stance.

 

[gln1955]

Not to be too cynical, but the ‘informercial’ comment may have something to do with the fact that Jeff has, in the last few months, begun selling online bass education courses.

Shouldn't he be a "Commercial User" then?

 

[socialleper]

I hope Berlin is a better player than author.

 

[David A. Davis]

Truth, clearly articulated, and supported by evidence, doesn't need to be supported by slogans.

Well, excuuuuuuse me! The OP liked my post so you can keep your snarky comments to yourself. Thanks.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Shouldn't he be a "Commercial User" then?

The only people to mention products he's selling are others here. I'm pretty sure he's losing business telling people online to get lessons locally..

 

[matthewbrown]

Ah, a classic Jeff Berlin question. Did you have to put your own name in the title?

You say this a lot, that teaching bass is done wrong, but your stance, for one, is contradictory and, two, I've never heard you say what is your exact opinion and method on how bass "should" be taught without using these contradictions as the basis of your argument?

You are good at creating "controversy" but not so good at taking a specific stand. Metronomes are "wrong" and teaching is done "wrong" but I'd rather hear you answer the question on how exactly you teach "correctly"? Then there's something to talk about, and something to debate.

Remember, you won't ever be completely right and you have to come to terms with this before starting discussions based on "absolutes" like this. You aren't helping anyone without first definining your stance.

I have to agree that this thread looks like it could be an attempt by Mr. Berlin to arouse controversy. Jeff Berlin is a professional musician -- a fine one -- and is entitled to his opinions. However, his arguments are still open to discussion and criticism. He is not a trained educator, and as far as I know, Mr. Berlin has no background in educational psychology or pedagogy. He clearly is not trained in formal argument, as his posts in this thread demonstrate. I think if you want to enjoy Jeff Berlin's work, you should listen to his recordings and attend his performances. I will never forget hearing him play a smoking set with Mike Stern in Boston! If you are looking for good advice on music education and studying the bass, there are many better sources, IMHO.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

Some posts read to me as if some were very eager to find mistakes in @JeffBerlin 's point.
Seems counter-productive to me, since who can formulate a 100% bullet proof claim?

Sure, he is not 100% correct when claiming:
"The only proven way that guarantees musical improvement is to practice musical content on your instrument."
But does that mean the whole sentence is crap?

I see it rather as an invitation to think about when does it make sense, and what may be exceptions?
Stupidly simple example: does it make sense learning palm muting (PM) without musical content?
To me: 90% no, 10% yes.
Of course, it makes sense, especially in the beginning, to explore without musical content what PM can be; how it can be altered, what happens if I strike more or less strings, place my hand here and there, et cetera.
But that's only a fraction of what PM is about - the rest, I could learn much better (if not only) along musical content, as it involves thinking ahead during playing when to PM, how, how much, how strong, how long, when to switch back to normal playing; deciding / feeling how the bass may play while the guitar plays PM without compromising neither rhythm nor fatness of the mix.
And last but not least: Why PM at all?

Similarly for "theory" stuff as harmonic function; I can explore intervals/chord progressions like T-S-D and their effect on my feelings playfully on my own, pattern by pattern; except that I find them stupidly boring, one dimensional and useless - and with respect to the time spent on that exercise, I don't get enough in return on how to actually incorporate them in a song. Similar to learning to bow a violin with no violin nor bow, but a pencil and a roll of toilet paper; some do that, yet, to me it felt like a detour, a waste of time. A vilolinist needs a violin and a bow, and chords need music, IMHO - though, sometimes the chords or even a note might be music on its own; musical content, yet again.

So far, I find more examples within my memories that validate his claim than ones that falsify it.
Maybe that would be an idea for further discussion: Examples

P.S.: @matthewbrown This is not in response to your thread. I edited the first sentence to clarify that a bit, since it seemed as if I tried to say that your post reads as if you were eager to find mistakes in Berlin's claim - but that is not what I wanted to express.