Jeff Berlin asks - What Is Taught Without Only Teaching the Facts!

[Quinn Roberts]

Some have named Suzuki as a method of learning, which it is. It just doesn't apply to adults. With this example, I would invite you to name some of the wildly different pedagogical approaches you are thinking of. Thanks.

I'd argue, that based off you second example of learning (learning musical content based in harmony, melody, and rhythm), the Suzuki method falls right into this. Especially considering the fact that it's been used for so long now, I'd call it a standardized method of learning some musical content at least.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

I like your post and appreciate your openness to a little straight talk. It isn't done for arrogance or ego or superiority or because I am a God (as some think that I feel about myself.) I am a guy with a background in music that an extremely few bass players have had. That's all! I'm not better than anyone nor a better bass player than anyone. I simply know music and how to cut years off of one's learning life. But, you have to want this for yourself. It is always up to people to choose their own musical paths.

If my views seem offensive to people, ignore me. I mean no harm. There are lots of other learning options for people to choose if this is their wish.

See, I told you guys he's human!

 

[Wasnex]

I guess that my first point is that I never stated that I am superior to anyone. Why do people sometimes regard confidence in one's knowledge or ability an arrogant thing?

I never said you have stated you are "superior to anyone," and confidence does not confer arrogance in itself. But some of the comments you have made in your pre-edit posts came across as condescending and judgmental. I am expressing this as an opinion rather than a fact, but perhaps you sensed it too as I see you have gone back and cleaned up your language multiple times, or maybe I have misunderstood you what you meant. For the record I have done a bit of editing to my posts as well.

I think you have a very strong opinion that rubs some people the wrong way. This is not unusual or uncommon with exceptional people such as yourself and I don't think you mean offense. It would be less acceptable if you did not value self-awareness, but I think you do, so it's all good.

No doubt I have offended some as well, even though I am also trying to be helpful and constructive. For any I have offended, I apologize for not communicating in a more appropriate manner.

 

[Wasnex]

and?

Sorry, I don't know the trick anymore

 

[Quinn Roberts]

There's a reason why some Zappa fans prefer the instrumental works over the "comedy music". The locker room mentality (esp. the Flo and Eddie/200 Motels period) can get tiresome once you're no longer a teenager.

I get flack for it, but my favorites will always be "You Are What You Is" and "Thing-Fish". There's another 80's album I'm missing there, but my personal favorite time period from the man hands down!

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Do you think that this is a result of teaching as a function of the role that the instrument plays in popular music?

Bass rarely plays chords in popular music, so why teach harmony? Bass rarely solos in popular music, so why teach melody? What does that leave? Rhythm, locking in with the drummer and "groove"!

Of course, if you want to be proficient in music, you should learn it all and why should your choice of instrument limit your knowledge of music as a whole?

I am always surprised by those who refuse to learn how to read or learn any theory inciting that it will stifle their creativity. How can having more knowledge prevent creativity? Like you mention, they are two separate entities (learning and performing/artistic expression).

My style revolves heavily around chords, and I'll be darned if the people I play with don't often look at me and say, "Bass!" (Codeword for solo time)

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Haha, thank you for that post - I so much can relate to what you expressed!
Also what I read between the lines; that even professional music can be divided into music one would not want to miss, and expendable music (like being OK with listening to Thunderstruck instead of Hell's Bells), while both apparently do have their reason to exist. I also know the child in me likes to believe that (let's call them) "Evergreens" have something magical about them that cannot be faked or even industrialised - while at the same time, even "popular" / industrialized music can be awesome; as maybe AC/DC; sounds to me as if they found a working recipe and stuck to that - still, it rocks! Or to consider my metal heros ManOwaR: One of their well known songs (Kings of Metal) is technically boring - yet, it works, maybe exactly because of that; not being pretentious, just delivering what needs being served

I love me some Manowar! Shows that simplicity really is key. And that in itself (ironic as it may sound) shows me some high level music intelligence. If Manowar wasn't so confident in their musical composition skills, knowing exactly what they were doing when writing "Kings of Metal", the song would never exist, at least not as we know and love it. Another great example of a "mother****** guitar song"!

 

[JeffBerlin]

Maybe, some people are just jealous? (Did I say it? )

I have another idea about this; people have tied their own validity into their beliefs. We all do this to some degree. But no fan can ever accept that the persons or institutions that they admire are teaching in a musically non beneficial manner. Even the mere hint of a negative comment about learning standards that are viewed as incorruptible will bring wrath down, and it already has.

 

[bass4more]

Commercial User Policy (CUP) | TalkBass.com

The policy seems to apply here.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I think you have a very strong opinion that rubs some people the wrong way.

Yes, I agree and this surely isn't my intention! I always try to include people's feelings in my posts by supporting their right to make up their own minds and encourage people to follow the path of learning that they choose for themselves even after reading my thoughts. I have no interest in bullying anyone into agreeing with me.

But if people are rubbed the wrong way, I don't know how to make people feel better. My hope is to just be clear but I've noticed that (sometimes) clarity isn't acceptable to some bass players. They seem offended by it.

Notice that being told not to drink and drive offends no one. The statement "Smoking Kills" doesn't even offend smokers. In all things, there are do's and don't that are shared. Why are bass players offended when I do the same thing? Some people seem to work harder not to get my thoughts than to get them. It is a mystery to me how sharing something meant to give people ta chance at musical improvement actually appear to rub people the wrong way. I have to confess that I just don't get it!

 

[foolforthecity]

Yes, I agree and this surely isn't my intention! I always try to include people's feelings in my posts by supporting their right to make up their own minds and encourage people to follow the path of learning that they choose for themselves even after reading my thoughts. I have no interest in bullying anyone into agreeing with me.

But if people are rubbed the wrong way, I don't know how to make people feel better. My hope is to just be clear but I've noticed that (sometimes) clarity isn't acceptable to some bass players. They seem offended by it.

Notice that being told not to drink and drive offends no one. The statement "Smoking Kills" doesn't even offend smokers. In all things, there are do's and don't that are shared. Why are bass players offended when I do the same thing? Some people seem to work harder not to get my thoughts than to get them. It is a mystery to me how sharing something meant to give people ta chance at musical improvement actually appear to rub people the wrong way. I have to confess that I just don't get it!

Welcome to 2018, Jeff. Please don't let folks derail you. I'm sure there's quite a few individuals here that are quite happy to hear what you have to say, absorbing some info and discarding a bit here and there as they so desire, without judgement. Thanks for your time. Please don't waste it defending yourself unnecessarily.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Welcome to 2018, Jeff. Please don't let folks derail you. I'm sure there's quite a few individuals here that are quite happy to hear what you have to say, absorbing some info and discarding a bit here and there as they so desire, without judgement. Thanks for your time. Please don't waste it defending yourself unnecessarily.

+1

 

[Wasnex]

Yes, I agree! And I add as often as possible that people have to make up their own minds and follow the path of learning that they choose. I don't think for anybody and have no interest in bullying anyone into agreeing with me. But, I do feel that stating that smoking will likely kill you, not telling you that some don't get sick and there's a guy in Russia that smoked four packs a day and lived to be 108. We've all heard that story and if people embraced this notion as a possible outcome for their health, they are gambling. What I am saying is that there is a way to improve your playing and it isn't gambling. If people are rubbed the wrong way about this statement, I just don't know how to make them feel better. Being told not to drink and drive offends no one. Why are people offended when I tell them to not practice via inefficient learning methods?

I find nothing offensive in this post. But, I do feel as if we are in a bit of an infomercial when we are 16 pages into this thread and read, "What I am saying is that there is a way to improve your playing and it isn't gambling." I assumed we would have a little better understanding of your process by now, but I have primarily learned some things you think are without value. I feel you represent your positions as fact-based, while I believe your positions reflects your opinions, some of which I agree with, and many of which I do not. So maybe the key for me to becoming a better bass player at this very moment is to move on. I'll continue to respond if anyone quotes me. Other than that I am out. [thread unwatched]

Peace everyone!

 

[Quinn Roberts]

I find nothing offensive in this post. But, I do feel as if we are in a bit of an infomercial when we are 16 pages into this thread and read, "What I am saying is that there is a way to improve your playing and it isn't gambling." I assumed we would have a little better understanding of your process by now, but I have primarily learned some things you think are without value. I feel you represent your positions as fact-based, while I believe your positions reflects your opinions, some of which I agree with, and many of which I do not. So maybe the key to becoming a better bass player at this very moment is to move on. I'll continue to respond if anyone quotes me. Other than that I am out. [thread unwatched]

Peace everyone!

His process is simple. If one wants to improve as a musician (bassist in most cases here) then go find a music teacher in you LOCAL area (be it a university prof., the local jazz trumpeter, or the nice old woman who stopped teaching music classes about a decade ago). He's not gone any farther into any processes because there's nothing more to go into. It's as simple as that... Nothing more, just go out and learn some music. We're all just to trigger friendly on the keyboard to read his very first post in the last thread, ponder on it a moment (but don't read between lines that aren't there), decide whether or not you agree with it, and then go "move on". However, here we are 500+ posts later.

 

[Fun Size Nick]

His process is simple. If one wants to improve as a musician (bassist in most cases here) then go find a music teacher in you LOCAL area (be it a university prof., the local jazz trumpeter, or the nice old woman who stopped teaching music classes about a decade ago). He's not gone any farther into any processes because there's nothing more to go into. It's as simple as that... Nothing more, just go out and learn some music. We're all just to trigger friendly on the keyboard to read his very first post in the last thread, ponder on it a moment (but don't read between lines that aren't there), decide whether or not you agree with it, and then go play your bass or something. However, here we are 500+ posts later.

Not to be too cynical, but the ‘informercial’ comment may have something to do with the fact that Jeff has, in the last few months, begun selling online bass education courses.

 

[Pbassmanca]

I just wanted to say, that the fact that @JeffBerlin is one of the original heavy players of the electric bass should be lost on no one on this forum. Not only that, but a serious heavy-duty instructor and bass philosopher as well. Very few, if any members on TalkBass are true heavy cats and orginators on the instrument that we all love so much. After many years of reading and being confused (and sometimes irritated ), by Mr. Berlin's musings on the philosophy of learning music as it applies to the bass guitar, I think that I finally understand what he is getting at after reading these posts: Without a thorough academic understanding and pursuit of musical theory as comprised of all the elements of rhythm, harmony, and melody as they apply to the electric Bass, the majority of players will be significantly limited in their ability to truly express themselves musically on their instrument. This is where I personally find myself, having reached a sort of "peak" in terms of my musical performance on the bass guitar ; where I do not feel that I am truly able to play the instrument as I feel, due to my lack of a thorough theoretical understanding of how all of the musical tones actually relate to one another in their various combinations of modes, scales, and chords on the bass. Anyhow, those are a few of my thoughts on the contents of this thread. Happy bass playing to all!

 

[Lesfunk]

You guys just can't handle the fact that Berlin is right!

 

[Joe Nerve]

Yes, I agree and this surely isn't my intention! I always try to include people's feelings in my posts by supporting their right to make up their own minds and encourage people to follow the path of learning that they choose for themselves even after reading my thoughts. I have no interest in bullying anyone into agreeing with me.

But if people are rubbed the wrong way, I don't know how to make people feel better. My hope is to just be clear but I've noticed that (sometimes) clarity isn't acceptable to some bass players. They seem offended by it.

Notice that being told not to drink and drive offends no one. The statement "Smoking Kills" doesn't even offend smokers. In all things, there are do's and don't that are shared. Why are bass players offended when I do the same thing? Some people seem to work harder not to get my thoughts than to get them. It is a mystery to me how sharing something meant to give people ta chance at musical improvement actually appear to rub people the wrong way. I have to confess that I just don't get it!

I think people get offended when opinions are presented as facts. And I'm pretty sure that's a fact.

I love playing bass.

 

[Wasnex]

His process is simple. If one wants to improve as a musician (bassist in most cases here) then go find a music teacher in you LOCAL area (be it a university prof., the local jazz trumpeter, or the nice old woman who stopped teaching music classes about a decade ago). He's not gone any farther into any processes because there's nothing more to go into. It's as simple as that... Nothing more, just go out and learn some music. We're all just to trigger friendly on the keyboard to read his very first post in the last thread, ponder on it a moment (but don't read between lines that aren't there), decide whether or not you agree with it, and then go play your bass or something. However, here we are 500+ posts later.

Not always easy to do, but simple enough concept providing you can find an instructor who is a good fit. I knew a lot of fine musicians who highly recommend this approach, but they were all college graduates.

My path to success was a little more involved. I gained my foundational understanding of theory in traditional college classes. This gave me everything I needed to start learning to improvise and play over changes. I can't overstate how invaluable the piano was to learning theory as it allowed me to play the chord structures, rhythm and melody so I could see, hear, and feel how all of the parts fit together. Ideas could be explored in their full tonal context and then later transferred to the bass. I also took lessons on upright bass that primarily focused on mastering technique, interpreting music, and playing with efficiency. Building these highly sought after skills were key to my future success. I would credit much of my later musical growth to a keyboard player I worked with in the early 90s. He helped solidify my comprehension of jazz chord notation and expanded my knowledge of chord structure and alterations. The rest of my growth came through self directed study of tunes in the Real Book, discussions with fellow musicians, and doing the job.

I think taking more advanced college theory and improvisation classes would have greatly expanded my mind and elevated my improvisation skills to an entirely new level, but that time has passed for me. Music used to be like an addiction, now I am content to mindlessly noodle in my basement for 30 or 40 minutes a day. I had a long and incredible music career and was able to perform for dignitaries and heads of state, live and tour in Europe for 7 years, and play for audiences of up to 10,000 live. It took a lot of study and discipline to develop and maintain the necessary skills and I couldn't have done it without receiving support and instruction from a lot of people who were better than I. I think this path was just fine.

 

[JeffBerlin]

His process is simple. If one wants to improve as a musician (bassist in most cases here) then go find a music teacher in you LOCAL area (be it a university prof., the local jazz trumpeter, or the nice old woman who stopped teaching music classes about a decade ago). He's not gone any farther into any processes because there's nothing more to go into. It's as simple as that... Nothing more, just go out and learn some music. We're all just to trigger friendly on the keyboard to read his very first post in the last thread, ponder on it a moment (but don't read between lines that aren't there), decide whether or not you agree with it, and then go "move on". However, here we are 500+ posts later.

Precisely! Because you and a couple other guys got this, I know that my thoughts were clear.