Jeff Berlin asks - What Is Taught Without Only Teaching the Facts!

[Michael Schreiber]

My belief is that if anyone invests in learning from a teacher or a school where musical content is not the first, foremost, and central aspect of one's training, then, you are investing poorly.

I didn't imagine it would be that bad at an academy.
Even in middle school we did our first basic approaches on theory with musical content. And this continued from there on; same in high school, where we could even chose to concentrate our learning on several genres; some chose Jazz, me classical. If it was without musical content, I wouldn't have bothered learning all that stupid seeming theory, since I was very sceptical if any theorist could even grasp the beauty of Beethoven's music. But with small steps like identifying the function of notes within intervals I could feel what our teacher told us was in line with my feeling. And that made me want to know more about it. Even though I was afraid that the magic would disappear when listening to my hero's music; Beethoven. It did not, fortunately

Anyway, thanks for your reply. I fully understand your point - and at least in my case your point is true; without musical content, I wouldn't have had any motivation to even listen to my music teachers at school; nor would I have nowadays at an academy. Might work for others, though - I am in no position to judge for others.

 

[brianrost]

I don't think that I ever said that they did.

Jeff, that was in reply to someone else's post questioning the benefit of Berklee education.

 

[Drgonzonm]

IMHO the majority of pro bassist who rely on this resource will use the C version to learn the changes and read treble clef to learn the melody. I find it harder to transpose than directly read treble clef.

add a line to the top staff in treble, so you have a six line staff, you have both treble and bass shown. If your extra line is a different color it's even easier The trick doesn't work for c clef.

 

[brianrost]

I hope I did not misunderstand you. No need to state each instrument has a different standard, if that's a way to get roots thirds, fifths, and seventh played, so be it. But as a bassist, I have the choice

Of course you have the choice to read from a tranposed part if you want to. But why would you want to? As a bassist when shopping for a book, if you have the choice of C (untransposed), Bb, Eb and bass clef (octave transposition) versions you should get either the bass clef version or the C version (treble clef).

 

[Wasnex]

Let's say, a car mechanic (not a NASA engineer!) must always learn something new about the cars. You can have that "intellectual plateau" but even a "simple" car repair mechanic must always learn something new!
The cars are always changing.

No argument here...you can always learn something new providing it is not so complex that it is beyond your ability to understand. I have hit the plateau in subjects ranging from music to math. I think my limiting factor is both my long term and working memory. Long term memory allows you to learn and retain information. Working memory allows you to hold and manipulate multiple ideas in your head simultaneously. When I learn I tend to retain the gained intuition regarding how to apply the knowledge, but I quickly lose the ability to recall facts and specifics. I can usually play a decent bass line over written chords changes unless the changes are really out there, but I don't really think about the notes, I just play them. When thinking about complex subjects, I can hold and manipulate three ideas in working memory, and start to struggle with 4 or more. Thinking abstractly about music theory quickly exceeds my limits and it gets far worse when simultaneously playing an instrument. Much easier to work complex ideas out on paper, but this is not practical while performing, thus we must practice on instrument in order to effective translate academic knowledge to our playing. It would all be much easier if I had an effective system of mental shorthand. Although it was once a goal, I never learned/developed such a system, and never ran much with a crowd that justified one. I am confident I would have made a lot more progress if I had a good mentor with an effective system. Beyond me to make my own system through self study.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

@JeffBerlin

Sorry, prof, but I reduced my question to a simple, universal one: You may have to be able to hear it to play it...
But do you have to be able to feel it?

I've always heard Zappa made the lyrics obnoxious on purpose to either turn you off or make you look deeper. Thos who did the latter where well rewarded!

 

[Drgonzonm]

Of course you have the choice to read from a tranposed part if you want to. But why would you want to? As a bassist when shopping for a book, if you have the choice of C (untransposed), Bb, Eb and bass clef (octave transposition) versions you should get either the bass clef version or the C version (treble clef).

If I go into a music score to buy a new book, it probably the bass book. But if it's a yard sale, I don't care what key its in.
I am not a lyric and chord guy, I like my music with notes, bass treble clef, the notes are that important. The notes and other stuff on the sheet gives me an idea of what the writer wanted. Being able to play is a different story

 

[Smallmouth_Bass]

Bass players believe that whatever works for them is a reliable mantra for learning.

Well, it is a form of learning. It just might not be reliable or efficient way to do it and offer inconsistent and/or varying results!

 

[brianrost]

I've always heard Zappa made the lyrics obnoxious on purpose to either turn you off or make you look deeper. Those who did the latter where well rewarded!

There's a reason why some Zappa fans prefer the instrumental works over the "comedy music". The locker room mentality (esp. the Flo and Eddie/200 Motels period) can get tiresome once you're no longer a teenager.

 

[bigboy_78]

Is there honestly any point to this discussion? It's gonna go on for 500 pages with nothing of worth or use having been said. Just annoyingly random opinions. There's no takeaway.

I think the point is, Mr Berlin is frustrated with courses like this:

In this rhythm based course, we take you through exactly how you can turbo charge your bass lines, grooves, time-feel, and overall mastery of the bass​

And is hoping to encourage everyone to concentrate more on fundamental music elements, primarily reading

That is my takeaway from this. If you want to really learn, you need to read and practice reading by playing musical pieces based on traditional harmonic concepts. The rest will fall into place as you progress.

The problem is that the message is so simple, it is easy to ignore.

 

[aborgman]

Some have named Suzuki as a method of learning, which it is. It just doesn't apply to adults.

You've stated this repeatedly. Saying it more times doesn't make it true.

The Suzuki method is used to teach both children and adults successfully.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

I've seen this too. There's a chance for a real positive awareness in musical perspective to happen here but arguing over the "what about's" and "what if's" seems to count more. I don't understand this.

Don’t be offended by it. Remember that “what abouts” and “what ifs” are the keystones to keeping an open mind, and if finding truth is really a goal, these questions need to constantly be asked. Imagine where modern medicine would be now if people weren’t constantly asking “what if there was a better way to heal this” and just stuck to the path that they thought worked best based on previous experience and tested academia. Your local pharmacy would have no penicillin and would be selling a whole lot more leeches.

 

[Smallmouth_Bass]

It basically seems to add up to the fact that contemporary instruments are taught in abysmal ways.

Do you think that this is a result of teaching as a function of the role that the instrument plays in popular music?

Bass rarely plays chords in popular music, so why teach harmony? Bass rarely solos in popular music, so why teach melody? What does that leave? Rhythm, locking in with the drummer and "groove"!

Of course, if you want to be proficient in music, you should learn it all and why should your choice of instrument limit your knowledge of music as a whole?

I am always surprised by those who refuse to learn how to read or learn any theory inciting that it will stifle their creativity. How can having more knowledge prevent creativity? Like you mention, they are two separate entities (learning and performing/artistic expression).

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

I am always surprised by those who refuse to learn how to read or learn any theory inciting that it will stifle their creativity. How can having more knowledge prevent creativity? Like you mention, they are two separate entities (learning and performing/artistic expression).

It’s just as prevalent in the art world, and probably much more so. I’ve heard tons of people saying they don’t want to go to art school because they didn’t want to just end up painting like the teachers. Most don’t seem to realize that nearly every single artist that influenced them, spanning every possible style, took formal training at some point.

 

[cnltb]

If you felt that this is my message, I apologize. I don't think this at all.

Nope, I didn't .
I think that there is no 'real' self-teaching.
I even met very few people that were able to learn(anything) effectively without any instruction, support, guidance at all.

 

[ObsessiveArcher]

Language without learning how to read and write it produced the limited skills of the Appalachian people during the 1920's. Adults are literally unable to learn music as a language as a child does because their minds are different. The lecture, while interesting, is flawed because it doesn't apply to us.

My reply was explaining that I was taught music theory through Saxophone, not bass. I then began to learn how to play bass. I might be biased, because I already have the out-of-time training from a different instrument.

I agree that it is hard to find a good bass teacher. I like to get information from multiple sources, then work thorough what each has to say. Even if a majority of what they "teach" I don't find useful, I can typically take away one thing that is. It is also possible I'm just not ready for the information at the moment.

I wouldn't dismiss the guy with the gloves because he is over the top. He has a wealth of information and just exudes excitement. If you really find him specifically too hard to handle, he surrounds himself with many other players and teachers with those resources available.

If you listen to the Ted talk again, more applies than you might think. Yes, the bulk and focus of the material is on beginning music lessons. But the core concept is to teach more than just the technical/theory side.

I'm not sure if you subscribe to the philosophy of; 1 hour of playing with other people is equal to 100 hours of practice by yourself. Similarly, 1 hour of performing in front of a crowd is equal to 100 hours of playing with other people. Music is not played in a vacuum, literally or figuratively and bass is not often played without other instruments. This interaction and "place" with the other instruments is key. Maybe we are just stating the same thing differently...

 

[cnltb]

I totally agree! Perhaps I need a new term for this. The idea is that what one chooses for themselves to embrace as meaningful in their playing falls under my title of "Self Taught" because they are teaching themselves via these methods. Or at least making the decision to embrace them.

Yes. This, I much agree on!
One is taught methods by which to learn effectively to then enable one to be more autonomous in ones learning from there on out. The decision what to then learn is a decision anyone will make for themselves, but sometimes the order in which to tackle certain things can use some guidance again, in case there is a list of things of interest.

 

[lfmn16]

I've seen this too. There's a chance for a real positive awareness in musical perspective to happen here but arguing over the "what about's" and "what if's" seems to count more. I don't understand this.

+1

I see this a lot on TB, when you can't win the argument, change the argument.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Of course you have the choice to read from a tranposed part if you want to. But why would you want to? As a bassist when shopping for a book, if you have the choice of C (untransposed), Bb, Eb and bass clef (octave transposition) versions you should get either the bass clef version or the C version (treble clef).

I think he's mistaking these transpositions for actual keys in music. (For example, Eb Real Book = Key of Eb) I still say though, if you choose to play from the Eb book, that treble cleff is just as good as the bass clef in C!

 

[buldog5151bass]

If I go into a music score to buy a new book, it probably the bass book. But if it's a yard sale, I don't care what key its in.
I am not a lyric and chord guy, I like my music with notes, bass treble clef, the notes are that important. The notes and other stuff on the sheet gives me an idea of what the writer wanted. Being able to play is a different story

. Worth getting the tablet version. Some even allow you to transpose keys.